The big word: Religion

[sockinyrpants]

Religion is a catalyst of conflict. Agreed.

Sigh. What a messed up species we are...

I blame Christians.

I blame human nature. We just can't help but turn to hope in desperate times of need.

[Ad Bot]

[sockinyrpants]

science has been proving god wrong, and proving we don't need a god. one advancement after another.
Many books have been removed from the bible over many 100s of years simply because of physics, medical science, and other advancements proving them wrong.

Didn't the Christian church (and other religions) kill people that said the world wasn't flat? Yes. because god made it flat.
Didn't they kill people for claiming that sickness can be cured and prevented? and its not just a curse from god because we sin? Yes.





Even these days, religions will try to change their creed, so that to keep up with the times, as thats the only way to keep getting money from people.
Even the pope himself will go against the teachings of god and the bible, and what the church stood for, for many years, because science proved them wrong. and its time to play catch up
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/b-pope-accepts-evolution.htm

We're human beings, we make mistakes. Big ones with dire consequences at times. We're weak by nature; that's why we've God. Tadah.

[sockinyrpants]

What is wrong with eternal bliss after life?

according to the bible, you have no identity in heaven. no memories, or free thoughts. all you exist for in heaven is to non stop praise god. and your self is gone.

Christians tend to not like to study that part.
its very displeasing

Yeah imagine that. You waste your whole life doing what the Bible tells you to do (pretty much be a lapdog), and in the end, what are you rewarded with? Nothing. No recognition, no credit. Just eternal servitude you owe to the big guy up there, because he supposedly gave you life. :)

[Linde]

God doesn't just act through nature, he acts through nature and in many ways which we can't comprehend.

How can you know that if you can't even comprehend it? Are you making this up as you write or what?

I only stated three for examples. Go search the net for the miraculous events that have taken place. And then email or call the people who experienced those situations and tell them that it was just a fluke. How does science explain the child surviving such a high fall? Did his skull somehow harden before impact? And programs have been created to help those who suffer. The people who created these groups want to maintain the greater good, and God is everything that is good.

Why does God have to manifest himself as the "greater good" in help groups to save starving children when he can do stuff like fortifying the skull of a falling child? Can't he just have manna rain upon the third world?

But, don't you have little respect for people that believe in God also? And true christians do not disrespect idiots, or commit immoral acts, so who is the better person?

No, true christians just disrespect gay people and people with other beliefs since those are considered immoral in the Old Testament. Please do remember that this debate is not about who is the better person. There is no need to take this to a personal level.

Your beliefs are based on logical conclusions that you can draw from what you've seen in a culture that demeans anyone who believes in God? I see a pattern here.

What's the pattern? Yes, surprise! Other people in our culture are also thinking logically!

You didn't prove that it exists outside of ourselves. You just said that it's real because that is the meaning behind the word. My point in comparing reality and not-believing-in-God folk, is to prove that we accept that reality is real and we don't question it's existance, and yet we question the existance of a higher being. Not even scientists can prove its real, and they can make us believe anything.

We do not question reality because we can percieve it. We do question the existance of a higher being because there is nothing in this world that indicates that case.

No, Adolf Riddler did that. God is everything that is good. If we do evil it is because we choose to.

Why was there no God in Adolf Riddler?

How exactly is that an intelligent argument? Were you raised believing that you are an alien? Did the media convince you that you were an alien? You are just jumping on the anti-religion band wagon because everyone else is doing it. I just heard that everyone was sending me money via paypal! Quick, send me more money!

Read it again. He's amplifying the point you made to the absurd to show how little sense it makes. Logically, it is still exactly what you were saying. Why don't you believe that we are love-starved aliens?

we can debate this forever, but I am happy with my decision to choose to put my faith in God. The feeling of happiness, accomplishment, and that warm feeling you get when you do something good is from God. Evil is a result from the abscence of God. God created science, and we experience his love through science. Science is even beginnning to prove that religion isn't so far off. http://www.wsmv.com/news/13358825/detail.html

I find it hard to believe that he is right when the only tangible comment given on the thesis is “I would not be able to even comment on that. … Those are some impressive formulas”. Also, this is from Nashville, TN.

Oh, and why is God ever absent? If He is all that is good and almighty, why can't He even maintain His own creation?

We have even discovered what is very similar to Jesus' tomb. Science can be used to disprove AND prove that there is evidence of God. So, why do people believe in science when it's findings are interpreted by humans, which are inarguably imperfect. One thing is for sure, christians with strong faith will never give up their beliefs, and this is what angers non-believers. If christians maintain good in the world, help other people, and are happy with their decision, what is to be debated? We believe in a higher meaning to life than just "we are here and we don't know why."

You really can't find any meaning in life without having someone else tell it to you? I find that kind of sad, to be honest.

Linde cleary said that it is foolish to believe in a higher meaning to life, well why is it foolish?

I did not. I said that it was foolish to do so just for the sake of it. I feel that I have a meaningful and happy life without some fairy tale to comfort me.

Terror raises a great argument. What exactly is wrong with believing in God? It is possible for science and God to coexist in truth.

The Christian God can not coexist in truth with science. Christian beliefs contradict many scientific facts. I guess that you've read Genesis, so I don't think that I need to address this matter further.

But, the only reason most people do not even consider God is because they are influenced by culture.

That's also the only reason people do believe in God. I have considered God many times, but it never got through to my close minded self how it could ever be true.

I do realize that it is hard to believe and explain, but many things in both religion and science go beyond comprehension. Anyway, I am done reading this topic. No amount of intelligent arguments or belief-challenging questions will make anyone in this topic have an open mind.

OK.

[WRB852]

From now on if you're going to use the term "God" be sure that you include a tag from your religion so we know who you're talking about. The "Christian God" is very different than the "FSM God"

Also to all of you people throwing around ideas as if they're fact. What makes your religion any more correct than others?

[Linde]

Just addressing some old points out of boredom.

Science is just opinions that we accept as fact because it makes sense. Most of science is just best guess

you really have no idea what science is do you. or is this what your priest teaches you?

Not really. That was basically the first sentence in my Chemistry book last year.

Really? That science is just opinions? I want an exact quote of that sentence and the ISBN number of that chemistry book so I know what not to ever consider buying.

Double post, Then what made FSM, and what made the thing that made FSM. and what made the thing that made the thing that made FSM... Inadvertly God created everything, there is no way you can disprove that.

Then what created God?

Science doesn't explain reality, and scientists have been baffeled over this for many years.

Science describes and explains reality whether it is as we actually percieve it or if it's just inside our heads.

Science also can't tell us what the meaning of life is.

Science makes no attempt at telling us what the meaning of life is. That's entirely untrelated to science since the meaning of life is highly subjective.

Religion has two simple answers: Reality is just a test of choice to choose God or not, and the meaning of life is to find salvation. What does your science say? Nothing, and that is where science falls short.

Okay, so religion might provide answers to those questions. It does not, however, back those answers up with any tangible evidence or anything that at least indicates that those answers might be true.

By your logic, I can say that I have answers to every unsolved mystery in the world, because technically I do, even if they are all wrong. Take that science! I can make stuff up and you can't disprove it! Ha!

I understand why you can't grasp the concept of a deity but what I don't understand is why you wouldn't want to believe in God. What is wrong with eternal bliss after life?

So I am supposed to believe in something just for the sake of it? Believing in eternal bliss after life isn't going to make it true any more than believing that you will get $1000000 tomorrow is going to make you rich. I did not choose not to believe in God. I just don't because I was taught to think critically.

[TheGeek]

"FSM God"

FSM stands for Flying Spaghetti Monster, which is the name of the deity, basicly you're saying something like "the Allah God". "The Pastafarian God" would be better.

[WRB852]

"FSM God"

FSM stands for Flying Spaghetti Monster, which is the name of the deity, basicly you're saying something like "the Allah God". "The Pastafarian God" would be better.

I didn't feel like typing out Pastafarian at the time.

[Muffinmix]

Let me clarify some things quickly about the whole Science vs. Religion thing.

First off, science is not, and will never be, Definite Fact. Allow me to explain, all the current scientific models HAVE worked for an x amount of situations, but until you have proven that these models will work for all future situations as well (i.e., by using them in infinite situations) you will NOT have a definite scientific model. This is the grand problem in science, in that it is an assemble of calculated guesses. Don't beleive me? What the hell do you think Quantum Mechanics is? No one understands that ice cream, NO ONE. That guy who made the famous equation that ties the Hamiltonian operator eigenfunctions with the energy eigenvalues? Schrödinger's equation was a calculated guess guys. A famous quote he made even established that he, himself, could not explain quantum mechanics. The reason we use it today is because it worked for all experiments up to this date.

You can overstate that yes, we did in fact do allot of experiments and the results did confer with what the current scientific laws have said, but this does not mean there won't be some mind boggling anomaly that will happen in future experiments that will throw one of our current model on it's ear. And even after that, some new anomaly will throw the new model on it's ear. No matter how we try, no matter what we do, we will never achieve "truth".

There's also the "Science proving religion wrong" stuff that I have read numerous times, but this ties up into the fact that people tend to sow their own beliefs into religion to try to make sure they are never proven wrong. I don't recall the bible stating "The world is flat" either. There's also the fact that science isn't exact, so you can't really prove something wrong when your very basis may be wrong. Thus, the dilemma of the whole science vs. religion thing.

I'll let you guys think about this. I'd also like to congratulate you guys on making this discussion interesting all around while keeping it in a relatively neutral tone. Keep it up and we might make more ground.

[Monty]

Science never intended to prove religion wrong, it's there to find out why bacteria have fallanges.

[Muffinmix]

Science never intended to prove religion wrong, it's there to find out why bacteria have fallanges.

Of course it wasn't, but people continue to try to prove religion wrong with it, and there are those who couldn't give a damn and just go about their research trying to find a cure to hepatitis (god speed)

[Swholli]

Wow. How did I miss this topic? Well then, as an agnostic I can very well say I am on the pretty much exact middle here. Allow me to expla- expand.

*Ahem*

I believe in God. There, I said it. And I can logically prove him... or her... or it. Scientists have been using technology for a few years now to examine the deep sub-sections of space. What they have found where little marks or "echoes" of the big bang, thus proving its existence. Now you're probably saying "But how does that prove God?" Simple. How the hell does a little dot of energy just come into existence out of nowhere and blow up to create all matter? Not by coincidence. Thats just silly.

Now eventually the matter spread very, very far, and a little blue planet began to evolve. From it little sea creatures emerged as single celled climaxs, er, organisms... and evolved further to a land creature, further to a reptile, further to a mammal, soon a monkey, and eventually modern day man. For more info on this, please see the up coming game: Spore.

Now, man was a very scared little creature, he wasn't sure what the noises coming from his "mouth", as he decided to call it, were. Thunder storms, earthquakes, fire... all of this scared him stuffless. He couldn't explain it. He had no way of explaining it, so over time once he learned communication he wrote down that "God" the almighty creator have must have made this flat land and the "sun" and the "moon" and all life. As far as he was concerned, it made sense.

Centuries went by, and though "God" changed slightly from one incarnation to another, his ideas stayed the same. Until a man known as Jesus Christ stepped up. Either he was crazy and didn't like the way the Romans did things and started saying he was the son of god, or someone else did it for him. Whatever the reason a brand new "idea" of God began, they dubbed it "Christianity" after that shepherd boy from Bethlehem that "died for our sins" Or so people thought. After that, it all went down hill.

The people who followed this idea, not all, but a majority thought that they were superior and no one was to defy their god. They waged countless wars over it, as well did other religions. They all began to take the ideas to seriously, when obviously they were simply written by that man from a while ago. The one who was scared of thunder? Yeah you remember him. They took his ideas of peace, and prosperity, and where did we come from, all wrong.

Now in the new centuries to later follow. From about the 1700's up to 2008 a new type of man had emerged. Scientist they called themselves. They after countless studies learned that the planet was not in fact round, we revolved around the sun, and possible evidence showed that we may have came from monkeys and everything started in a "big bang". This started something so much more worse than Christianity's. ATHEISM. Oh yes, it is a whole new hell. (no pun intended)

These religion bashing Atheists have it far more wrong than the Christians do. No God? Nothing? We all just ... popped? What? That didn't make sense. Now I'll agree they did have some things right, that God should love us no matter what we do, Jehovah's Witnesses are freaky, and that Church isn't necessarily a good thing. But that doesn't mean you should curse all people who believe in God or a higher power. Especially when you yourself, though you have some science to back you up, have no possible way to prove he/she/it doesn't exist. Christians have the right idea, be kind to fellow man, don't commit adultery, etc etc. They just should try to force their church and bible on us. And they defiantly shouldn't start preaching to us when we say we're not of their following. It gets annoying after a while.

My point of this rant, weather or not you agree with all ideas in it, is simply this:

God probably exists, therefore hell might... be good, the ten commandments are also the united states law... abide by them (though adultery's not illegal, its still not nice, you meany). Second, if he does then good, if he doesn't also good. No one is right no one is wrong. Third (and this is the most important) Please, PLEASE, don't yell at me for not being a Christian, its my choice, respect it bitch.

I've made my statement. Discuss if you like it, add what you want, take away as well, just explain your reason. And your reason can't be because its against your religion. That's just stupid.

~Scott

[Linde]

Wow. How did I miss this topic? Well then, as an agnostic I can very well say I am on the pretty much exact middle here. Allow me to expla- expand.

*Ahem*

I believe in God. There, I said it. And I can logically prove him... or her... or it. Scientists have been using technology for a few years now to examine the deep sub-sections of space. What they have found where little marks or "echoes" of the big bang, thus proving its existence. Now you're probably saying "But how does that prove God?" Simple. How the hell does a little dot of energy just come into existence out of nowhere and blow up to create all matter? Not by coincidence. Thats just silly.

Great, you just ended a debate that has been going on for the last few hundred years. Oh wait, how is that logical proof? Hmm, yes, since we don't know anything about the creation of our universe, let's just assume that it was sparked by some omnipotent being that was made up thousands of years ago. That surely is the only logical explanation.

How well does calling yourself an agnostic and claiming that you have logical proof of the existence God go together, by the way? Look up the definition of the word "agnostic" before you go flailing it around like an erect snake in the restroom of a gay club.

Since the rest of your post is largely based on that farfetched assumption, I am only going to correct some errors.

• Christianity was not a brand new idea of God. It's basically Judaism with Jesus Christ and the Trinity added to spice thing up.
• The word "scientist" emerged in the 19th century, but science, in the sense of drawing conclusions from systematical experiments and study of previous experiments, has been around far longer than since the 1700s, as has the idea of a spherical earth.
• Atheism is not at all about "religion bashing"; it simply means not believing in the existance of any deities. How is not believing in something, that can't be proved, wrong, when there is nothing to even indicate that it even might be true? Atheism was "started", as you call it, when people in general got access to more information and better education, and realized that there were obviously better alternatives for understanding the world than believing in thousand year old doctrines.

You end your message by asking us not to yell at you since you're a Christian, and to respect your choice. I'm not going to yell at you, but I am not going to respect your choice any more than I'd respect the choice of a drunkard. You obviously don't respect the beliefs of other people, yourself, anyway.

[Swholli]

Wow. How did I miss this topic? Well then, as an agnostic I can very well say I am on the pretty much exact middle here. Allow me to expla- expand.

*Ahem*

I believe in God. There, I said it. And I can logically prove him... or her... or it. Scientists have been using technology for a few years now to examine the deep sub-sections of space. What they have found where little marks or "echoes" of the big bang, thus proving its existence. Now you're probably saying "But how does that prove God?" Simple. How the hell does a little dot of energy just come into existence out of nowhere and blow up to create all matter? Not by coincidence. Thats just silly.

Great, you just ended a debate that has been going on for the last few hundred years. Oh wait, how is that logical proof? Hmm, yes, since we don't know anything about the creation of our universe, let's just assume that it was sparked by some omnipotent being that was made up thousands of years ago. That surely is the only logical explanation.

How well does calling yourself an agnostic and claiming that you have logical proof of the existence God go together, by the way? Look up the definition of the word "agnostic" before you go flailing it around like an erect snake in the restroom of a gay club.

Since the rest of your post is largely based on that far fetched assumption, I am only going to correct some errors.

• Christianity was not a brand new idea of God. It's basically Judaism with Jesus Christ and the Trinity added to spice thing up.
• The word "scientist" emerged in the 19th century, but science, in the sense of drawing conclusions from systematical experiments and study of previous experiments, has been around far longer than since the 1700s, as has the idea of a spherical earth.
• Atheism is not at all about "religion bashing"; it simply means not believing in the existence of any deities. How is not believing in something, that can't be proved, wrong, when there is nothing to even indicate that it even might be true? Atheism was "started", as you call it, when people in general got access to more information and better education, and realized that there were obviously better alternatives for understanding the world than believing in thousand year old doctrines.

You end your message by asking us not to yell at you since you're a Christian, and to respect your choice. I'm not going to yell at you, but I am not going to respect your choice any more than I'd respect the choice of a drunkard. You obviously don't respect the beliefs of other people, yourself, anyway.

Well, obviously you didn't read a few things.

First off. Agnostic: The belief of a possibility, note that word, possibility, of a higher power. In my case I believe in god, or a god, but not the bible or organized church.

Secondly, I wasn't try to end the discussion, and I had logical proof. If you read furthur I said "Scientists have found marks or "echoes" of the big bang, thus proving its existence." Meaning to say, the big bang probably happend, and that matter can just appear somewhere without the help of something is almost illogical, weather it be a god or not, you can't just say nothingness can become somethingness by itself. I consider that proof of "God".

How is Christianity not a new idea of god? It wasn't around in B.C. times (note the fact it means "Before Christ") We've only recorded it to Ancient Rome. Thats when Jesus went against the Roman empire, and they technically "stole" Judaism the wrote their own version of it in the new testament. So yes, its a new idea.

Yes yes, I know that scientist have been coming to conclusions far long before the time period I spoke of. But I was referencing to the "Enlightenment" The time when people started to go against the long regarded truth that was science and government. I'm not sure the exact date of the enlightenment, I used 1700's as an example.

I didn't say that Atheism was all about religion bashing. This might be my only flaw I agree with you on. I was only meaning the Atheists who did religion bash, which sadly theres a large majority of them who do. I'm sorry I said that, and I have cleared it up for you. I hope. Theres nothing wrong with it, and I myself was an Atheist for a while as well. Then I found my theory, yes it is a theory, I in no way shape or from say it to be fact, the theory of "the big bang and god" so to speak.

I didn't end the thing saying that! I'm NOT a Christan! Thats what people yell at me for! Again, you obviously didn't read, and therefore made false statements. I respect everyones beliefs, I just think they do some things wrong. They have it right with global peace and all the ten commandments, I just think that imposing it on other people and waging wars in Gods name is contradiction. Note you thought that I didn't respect others onions cause you thought I was Christan, didn't you. Ha, And I'm disrespectful.

I've made my statement (again) hopefully clearing up what confused you, and what you read wrong, and what I left out. Thats exactly why I left it open for editing. Thank you. If theres anything else to fix, please tell me. I enjoyed your little comments. (Gay bar... ha ha.)

EDIT: After rereading your arguments again, you really did think I was a Christan. And thats why you disagreed with everything I said! Ha, trust me, I would never be caught dead in a religion. All the "isms" are so screwed up right now, I don't think faith is even involved with some people anymore.

Never. Ever. Would I go to church.

[Linde]

Well, obviously you didn't read a few things.

First off. Agnostic: The belief of a possibility, note that word, possibility, of a higher power. In my case I believe in god, or a god, but not the bible or organized church.

Agnosticism is the belief that whether deties exist or not it can not be known for certain. You call yourself agnostic and then in the paragraph immediately after that you claim to have logical proof of the existance of a God. Sure, you can believe in God and still be agnostic, but once you blurt out that you are certain that there is a God you are no longer agnostic by definition.

Secondly, I wasn't try to end the discussion, and I had logical proof. If you read furthur I said "Scientists have found marks or "echoes" of the big bang, thus proving its existence." Meaning to say, the big bang probably happend, and that matter can just appear somewhere without the help of something is almost illogical, weather it be a god or not, you can't just say nothingness can become somethingness by itself. I consider that proof of "God".

I'm sorry to have to say this, but your idea of proof is really warped. Has it ever passed your mind that by that logic some other fairy tale character might as well have created the world? Perhaps Snow White or the Grinch.

When you actually have logical proof of God I am sure that there are a lot of philosophers and scientists who'd like to have a word with you. Believe me when I say that people have tried to find proof of God for ages. Even if you don't understand the point that I was making in my last post, you must at least understand that the answer to such an elaborately explored problem won't likely be revealed by a 14 year old on the Blockland Forums.

How is Christianity not a new idea of god? It wasn't around in B.C. times (note the fact it means "Before Christ") We've only recorded it to Ancient Rome. Thats when Jesus went against the Roman empire, and they technically "stole" Judaism the wrote their own version of it in the new testament. So yes, its a new idea.

Aha, so did you mean "new" as in "only a couple of thousand years old" rather than "new" as in "an original idea"? Because in the sense of "only a couple of thousand years old", that statement has no relevance to the discussion.

Yes yes, I know that scientist have been coming to conclusions far long before the time period I spoke of. But I was referencing to the "Enlightenment" The time when people started to go against the long regarded truth that was science and government. I'm not sure the exact date of the enlightenment, I used 1700's as an example.

Yes, the enlightment was in the 1700s. I agree that this was the time ideas of atheism and science first were spread wide in the west, but the heliocentric world view was established in the 1400s and the fact that the earth is round was predicted (on empircal base) by Aristotle 300 years before christ. Charles Darwins ideas of evolution are from the mid-1800s, and the Big Bang theory is much newer than that, so all your examples are well outside the period of time you speak of.

It's hardly relevant to the discussion, but if you want to be taken seriously you have to get your facts straight.

I didn't say that Atheism was all about religion bashing. This might be my only flaw I agree with you on. I was only meaning the Atheists who did religion bash, which sadly theres a large majority of them who do. I'm sorry I said that, and I have cleared it up for you. I hope. Theres nothing wrong with it, and I myself was an Atheist for a while as well. Then I found my theory, yes it is a theory, I in no way shape or from say it to be fact, the theory of "the big bang and god" so to speak.

In your last message you called your [now] theory of "the big bang and god" logical proof. Do you realize the difference? I'd argue that it is not even a theory, since it there is practically no substance behind the claim. Let's forget that, though, since I already addressed it twice.

On what facts do you base your statement that "religion bashing" atheists are in majority? I'm sure that if you poke around a little, you'll find that less people than you think believe in God. Some people might even say that they do because that's what's expected of them. I'd say that most atheists probably are not very vocal about it.

I didn't end the thing saying that! I'm NOT a Christan! Thats what people yell at me for! Again, you obviously didn't read, and therefore made false statements. I respect everyones beliefs, I just think they do some things wrong. They have it right with global peace and all the ten commandments, I just think that imposing it on other people and waging wars in Gods name is contradiction. Note you thought that I didn't respect others onions cause you thought I was Christan, didn't you. Ha, And I'm disrespectful.

Ah, I did read that part wrong. Sorry about that. But yes, you are at least as disrespectful of the beliefs of people as I am. Trying to impose your own beliefs on other people is part of Christian doctrine (look up "missions"). You obviously don't respect that, and you showed your disrespect for atheism in your first message.

I've made my statement (again) hopefully clearing up what confused you, and what you read wrong, and what I left out. Thats exactly why I left it open for editing. Thank you. If theres anything else to fix, please tell me. I enjoyed your little comments. (Gay bar... ha ha.)

Thanks, I was very satisfied with that brown townogy.

EDIT: After rereading your arguments again, you really did think I was a Christan. And thats why you disagreed with everything I said! Ha, trust me, I would never be caught dead in a religion. All the "isms" are so screwed up right now, I don't think faith is even involved with some people anymore.

Never. Ever. Would I go to church.

I did not disagree with you just because I thought that you were Christian. Claiming to have any kind of proof of God really does grind my gears, though, no matter what your beliefs are.