Messages

16

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 05:07:20 PM »

Because you're doing to have to define a "base path" for the config files to go in AppData and the add-ons and saves to go in the User folder or wherever. You're then going to have to go and find every reference to these file paths and add this "base path" to it. You're then going to have to go and modify how the Resource Manager works which is a nightmare to change anyway, so that the engine knows the files exist. You then have to hack up the existing security that prevents external folder access and allow it only access to the two base paths you defined.

Sounds like a mess to me.

Ok, riddle me this. Why weren't all these paths that need to be modified loaded from some central location? If all the strings are hard coded, that sounds like a nightmare in itself. Global_Paths_Addons, Global_Paths_InstalledFolder, etc would have been easier to manage from the beginning.

Also, would a project wide find-replace not work on all the paths? Since strings are double quoted, you wouldn't have to worry about accidentally replacing something that shouldn't have been modified.

As for your mention of the resource manager, are you telling me that the files are not loaded by string name?

You edited your post after I began replying. I've never written a game using a prebuilt engine. I've always written mine from scratch, the few that I've written. I don't write things as simple as a notepad. And Visual Basic sucks, I don't use it.

17

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 04:59:22 PM »

Maybe your awesome visual basic notepad you made with live action saving and loading works using a single string value, but the Torque Game Engine is a different ball game. I suggest you go and learn about that before you go telling a bunch of people with years of experience how to use it.

It's called a base path. You set it to whatever you want and tack the relative path on the end of it. So instead of the program reading the file ".\Add-Ons\Map_bedroom.zip" it would read base + "\Add-Ons\Map_bedroom.zip".

base would be a single string variable. I don't know why you think it would be any more complex than that.

18

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 04:53:06 PM »

You can argue all you like, Badspot is not going to change the file structure just because one person says it's messy. The fact that you want the game split into 3 parts, is even more messy then the current system.

If you don't want to install the game directly on your main drive, make a Games sub folder.

How do you have any idea what Badspot will or won't do? I've actually got a handful of other programmers that agree with me on the subject.

Try to understand how complicated the change you suggest is comparatively to you moving the folder.

Beyond that, splitting the program and the data is a stupid move, in my personal opinion.

It's not complicated at all. It requires minimal code change. Paths are easy to change.

~facepram~

I don't think you're getting the point here. This is a change that would require totally breaking the way the game file structure works at the moment. This game engine is not meant to access files outside of it's base folder and that is absolutely the way it should stay when the game is so open to modding like it is. The dev time would be better spent on something people can actually enjoy.

It wouldn't break anything. Paths are not hard to change. End of story. If you've ever written a program that uses files and folders, you'd know how stupidly easy it is to change a single string value.

19

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 04:26:03 PM »

Some of the data goes in the Registry, so if you want to call it a good system then you've got to include that too. You can't put the data in My Documents either since that'd be against the whole point of the Windows data folder structure you're defending. If you're putting it there then you may as well use C:/Blockland.

~faceplam~

Windows XP and newer versions have a Saved Games folder either in My Documents (XP) or directly on the user (Vista/7). That's where the game addons and saved builds would go.

Programs should never be installed to the root of the drive. Not only is it disorganized, it's tacky.

Programs should be easy to back up. When everything is stored in the user's folder, copying the entire folder can be considered a complete OS backup. All the programs can be reinstalled and then the user's folder is just pasted back in place. Blockland can't be backed up like that, while everything else I use, can be.

Also, the registry is rather abused at this point. Originally it was only used to store file extension associations. This was as early as Windows 3.1.

20

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 04:09:10 PM »

The Application Data file is hidden for no explained reason which makes Add-Ons and such hard to install, the file writing protection breaks just about everything by having written files inaccessible to the program sometimes or files directly installed to C:/Program Files not working. It's two folders pretending to be one merged one and usually end up as one and a half, or perhaps none at all. (With a million extra broken shortcuts everywhere to folders that no longer exist like WinXP's Documents and Settings that don't work sometimes) Then there's the registry, just to slow everything down and put all your settings in more confused, bloated "backwards-compatible" storage.

You seem to have missed the part where I said that addons would go under My Documents or other similar folder.

And who said anything about the registry?

21

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Blockland for teh Wii/ Xbox/ ps3

« on: January 06, 2010, 03:46:02 PM »

The keys can easily be bound to modern game controllers. I'm actually working on setting up Blockland to use my Xbox 360 controller. (Blockland doesn't support this directly, I'm using a separate program).

The biggest problem is the lack of communication between systems. Xbox 360 could connect to Windows PCs, but other operating systems and other consoles don't have a bridge there. The server setup required for something this big would be too expensive.

22

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 03:41:49 PM »

Keeping the same hacked up folder structure from versions of Windows over ten years old and creating hidden virtual directories that mess up all the programs designed for them is definitely what it's supposed to do!

It's not hacked up.

"Program Files" = where the program goes.
"Application Data" = where the data goes.

Good operating systems use this organization. Both Windows and Linux do. I can't speak for Mac because I hate the dang things and have never bothered inspecting the file system.

23

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 03:38:50 PM »

*bangs head on table* GET *ow* A *ow* MAC *ow*...



*ow*

I'm not even going to bother putting up argument for that one.

24

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 03:32:07 PM »

Or you could use a well-structured operating system i.e. not Windows Vista

Vista/7 follow the same structure as Windows XP, Me, 98, 95, and possibly earlier. Vista/7 just enforce using the folders for what they should be used for.

25

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 03:24:26 PM »

I can pretty much guarantee that Badspot will not make any changes to the engine that allow it to mess with files outside of the game folder.  Installing somewhere else or disabling UAC are the solutions.

I run Blockland from an external drive and it works just fine.  It's more or less a "portable" app; it doesn't install any drivers or DLLs and it doesn't add keys to the registry.

I prefer that Badspot spend his Blockland time on bug fixes and new features instead of catering to "programmers" bitching about menial stuff.

It's not menial. It's the way programs are supposed to be written. It's called good practice. And I don't appreciate you putting programmer in quotes to say that I am not one.

Besides, changing paths is not hard. It would require changing ONE line of code for each path in a well structured program.

26

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 06, 2010, 01:02:58 AM »

I know it's a design issue. That's why I brought it up.

27

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 05, 2010, 11:28:22 PM »

That's not a real solution. The problem isn't UAC, it's the fact that Blockland is writing to the Program Files folder in the first place. It shouldn't be writing there.

28

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 05, 2010, 11:07:40 PM »

Solution: Don't install Blockland to Program Files on Vista/7. When installed to your main drive (which is what is meant to be done with Vista and 7), none of these problems occur.

That's not a solution at all. Programs go in Program Files. Data goes in AppData. That's how programs should be built.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by main drive. If you are referring to the root "C:\Blockland" that's an even worse convention and will still cause the same problems.

29

Suggestions & Requests / Re: Better folder structure

« on: January 05, 2010, 10:46:51 PM »

I would like to mention that this thread was aimed toward the programmers, not the users of Blockland, but I appreciate the responses.

Although I agree that the forums are a little odd on Windows 7, the add-on moving interface was actually surprisingly easy. In my case, upon beginning a download you are asked to choose a location to save to. Just choose the add-ons folder under Blockland (which should be under C://Programs(x86) if it was placed correctly) and no moving of files is even required. So far, I have had no issues with any of these mods, so it definitely works. Is it the same with Vista? If you don't know, I could do a little digging on my mom's computer...

I don't think you quite understand. The location of the download isn't important. It's the fact that Program Files requires administrative access to change (unless a program is running inside the program folder, that causes items to be written to the virtual store, message me if you wish to understand more).

I thought you could turn that permission thing off.

Yes you can disable it, but no. UAC is a good thing. Disabling it invites malware. Well written programs only require UAC to install, never to operate unless they are administrative tools.

i thought that they were all in the BL folder so it's easier to access them from other addons

I was saying that the entire addon folder should be relocated. Instead of "Blockland\Add-Ons" it would be "Documents\Add-Ons" or whatever.

30

Suggestions & Requests / Better folder structure

« on: January 05, 2010, 08:38:24 PM »

As we all know, Windows Vista and Windows 7 enforce a new set of rules for where programs should write data. Users who want to install addons need to get administrative privileges to copy the zip file to the Program Files folder. Anything Blockland writes in its own directory ends up in the virtual store and most users have no idea that this even exists.

I suggest moving all settings-based data to the AppData folder under the current user and have the addons folder somewhere user accessible. A folder under My Documents or even a new folder in the user's main folder would be appropriate.

If there are good reasons for using the current system, I'd like to hear them. If not, I'd like to see it changed. I'm a programmer so feel free to get technical if you need to, but I expect that it's more for the sake of being simple than anything.

Off topic: Also, the forum is a little odd. I can't tab from the message are [this box I'm typing in] to the Post button without hitting every other object in the window first.