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Messages - SeventhSandwich

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2581
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 27, 2017, 06:02:56 AM »
I'm not making some political statement on how your wrong I'm just saying that it's going to be tough.
I agree that it'll be tough, and it'll definitely take many decades. I'm not an expert on women's rights movements, but my guess is that women's issues will start to improve in Muslim-majority nations when those countries become more stable/prosperous/etc.

I messed around with the Gapminder graphing tool and looked at GDP per capita versus # of years of schooling among women aged 25+, and there's a very nice positive correlation between the two.

https://www.gapminder.org/tools/#_state_time_value=2009;&marker_axis_slash__y_which=mean_slash__years_slash__in_slash__school_slash__women_slash__25_slash__years_slash__and_slash__older&domainMin:null&domainMax:null&zoomedMin:null&zoomedMax:null;;;&chart-type=bubbles

It's probably not the only factor though. Saudi Arabia and the UAE are two really strong outliers on the graph. Those countries also have an obscene inequality in wealth, so that might also be another factor to look at.

2582
Off Topic / Re: 2017 WORLD POLITICS & DONALD Annoying Orange MEGATHREAD
« on: January 27, 2017, 05:50:42 AM »
GUYS, here's how Bernie can still win when he becomes a skeleton.
literally what is the skeleton meme

2583
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 27, 2017, 05:48:00 AM »
Were probably going to see alot of dead women for disobeying
Perhaps, but how does discriminating against Muslims help to raise the status of Muslim women? Cappytaino seems to be saying that there's no way to address women's issues in Islam besides completely resenting them as a religious group.

2584
Off Topic / Re: [news] THE WALL IS GOING UP
« on: January 27, 2017, 05:33:31 AM »
no one expects it to stop 100% of people. but hoards wont be walking on through anymore.
Hoards don't walk through already lol. The majority of illegal immigrants enter our country through overstaying visas or being smuggled in by coyotes.

Might make it a bit harder for the coyotes to do their job, but they'll manage. Expect a drop until the first tunnel is built.



If we really want to solve this problem of illegal immigration permanently, there's basically two options. We can either cease the subsidization of our agriculture and compete fairly in the market, or we can offer citizenship to undocumented immigrants. The first option will likely never happen because politics is dominated by special interest groups, so amnesty seems to be the most realistic option.

2585
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 27, 2017, 03:19:17 AM »
loving both feminism and islam is the prime example of leftist doublethink today.
I don't think liberals profess to 'loving Islam'. The idea is that we're the political ideology that sticks up for oppressed minorities. It doesn't mean we subscribe to their religious doctrine.

We'll probably see a women's liberation movement happen internally in Islam sometime in our lifetimes.

2586
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 03:56:36 AM »
the sample size of that image is 0.002% of the whole muslim population on earth

aka its a completely accurate trend
There's some other methodological problems too. One circle is for "Sharia should rule", but the actual survey asked something like, "should Sharia be the law-of-the-land for Muslims?" Likewise, the same survey found a large support for religious freedom for non-Muslims, even in countries where Sharia is very strict. It's entirely likely that the question was often interpreted as, "should Muslims follow Sharia?".

2587
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 03:47:08 AM »
[im g]https://i.imgur.com/8LSSSgr.png[/img]
I've seen this image so many times I can debunk it from 50 feet away. The study this graph is based on looked at like 1,000 Muslims and used that as their representative sample for all 1.6 billion Muslims.

That is roughly 1 Muslim per 1,600,000. The population of my hometown Phoenix happens to be 1.51 million. That's like asking the average Phoenician their opinion and then saying it's the opinion of everyone in Phoenix.


Actually I was thinking of another study. This one looked at 38,000. However, that's still an absurdly low sample for a population exceeding 1.6 billion, despite their attempts to stratify the data.

2588
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 03:42:39 AM »
Now where death tolls come into play is that since Christianity is generally more difficult to conquer with (although it can be done) it is generally more difficult to convince the population to massacre millions of people. Islam on the other hand has it written right in the Quran, and not any of that "it's up for interpretation" bullstuff either. There is only so many ways you can interpret "if someone leaves Islam you have to kill them". Even during the islamic golden age when Europe was the equivalent of the modern day middle east the muslims committed far more atrocities in the name of allah and persecuted far more religious minorities, nearly wiping out Zoroastrianism and killing millions of Hindu's.

Now with Christianity there was the central figure of authority, the Pope. Who is where the Catholics went to for interpretation. The pope, who had an obscene amount of power over Christians from sheer influence, crown Charlamagne the "emperor of the romans", often excommunicated political foes, and called for crusades against his enemies. Now this is all stuffty, albeit the crusades were a reconquest since the Eastern Roman Empire was losing vast amounts of territory in Asia Minor but nevertheless these things happened. What changed was with the reformation.

Now you already understand what the reformation is I hope. But on top of a massive amount of Christians leaving the Catholic church the Pope also didn't have much power over the remaining Catholics. During and before the reformation the Church and the Pope had to accept there were many problems with the church and made compromises, significantly weakening it and it's influence. The church no longer had a monopoly over European politics.
But there are literally billions of Muslims who don't lash out violently against apostates or commit jihad. Likewise, there were tons of Christians who ignored all the peace-making stuff in the Bible and flew the banner of Christianity as a military symbol. You can point out the theological differences, but ultimately it's just sort of a fact that most religious people break from what's actually written in scripture. Hell, something like 80% of Jews don't even eat Kosher.

I'm not doubting that there are hard-line theological differences between how Christianity and Islam address issues like apostasy, but it doesn't feel right to generalize entire groups of people just because their book says one thing. There's tons of stuff in the New Testament that encourages loveism, family values, genocide, etc. But those labels don't apply to >99% of Christians.

Even during the islamic golden age when Europe was the equivalent of the modern day middle east the muslims committed far more atrocities in the name of allah and persecuted far more religious minorities, nearly wiping out Zoroastrianism and killing millions of Hindu's.
I still don't think you're exactly answering my question though. We've established that there's been violence directly tied to both Islam and Christianity. You argue that there's much more in Islam, and I have my doubts that the standard here for what counts as 'religious violence' is fair. But let's assume that Islam does have a much higher death toll.

Both death tolls are certainly in the tens of millions but more likely in the hundreds of millions. Why is it that the threshold number for when a religion becomes 'violent' happens to coincidentally fall between the atrocities 'committed by' Christianity and Islam?

I recognize that you're making a theological argument here, but we both know that when people call Islam a "violent religion," what they're really saying is, "Muslims are violent," which warrants a look at the actual numbers rather than just the religious scripture.

2589
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 02:54:07 AM »
I guess what I'm trying to say is that with Christians it was generally lower until it petered out.

That never happened with Islam
I mean, other things petered out at the same time. Christian-majority nations became more stable, richer, and industrialized. The Middle East was held back a lot by conflict and colonialism. It's not like the only difference here is 'we're christians and you're not'.

I do think my original question was important though, which is, why do you actually draw the line arbitrarily between Christianity and Islam? Why can't both be violent?

2590
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 02:45:41 AM »
I never said christians didn't. As I keep loving saying, the death toll for the Muslims is far higher.
So what's the actual threshold where we can say that a religion is 'violent'? It's obviously in the tens/hundreds of millions for both Christianity and Islam?

Do you have like an actual figure in mind, or is it just some line that you've arbitrarily drawn lower than Islam and higher than Christianity? Why don't you think both religions are violent, since after all, both have committed what you'd call 'religiously-motivated' acts of violence.

2591
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 02:42:30 AM »
Difference being that wasn't the countries reason for going to war. Unlike the Timurids who waged religious wars against the Hindu's and persecuted and murdered religious minorities within their own border.
This isn't unique to Muslims though. Christians have done the same thing countless times throughout history.

Remember that what I'm saying here isn't that Christians are religiously-violent, it's that religion isn't actually the key cause of these conflicts. There's historical context that's always missing.

2592
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 02:36:30 AM »
That's roughly equivalent to cherry-picking some quote from Bush where he cites Christianity as his 'political inspiration', and then tallying every death in the Iraq War as Radical Christian Terrorism.
Lol, holy stuff. That was entirely hypothetical, but check this stuff out:

George Bush actually went on record as saying, "God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq."

https://www.quora.com/Did-George-W-Bush-really-say-God-told-me-to-invade-Iraq

Boom, 'Christian' terrorism, by your own definition.

2593
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 02:33:39 AM »
20 million from one ruler? Thats more then the amount dead in the Thirty Years War.
I don't think that even constitutes religious violence tbh. You don't even know whether his soldiers were killing people in the name of Islam.

That's roughly equivalent to cherry-picking some quote from Bush where he cites Christianity as his 'political inspiration', and then tallying every death in the Iraq War as Radical Christian Terrorism.

The Spanish never liked to admit that the natives helped them. The Tlaxcians did as we later found out.
The Natives also weren't a monolith, they had wars of their own between different tribes.

2594
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 02:29:23 AM »
"Timur frequently used his Islamic religion to achieve his military goals or domestic political aims" so thats 20 million already.
So did like everyone. You don't think there were famous and barbaric leaders in European history who used Christianity to further their goals?

I don't want to go find all the loving sources from 5 years ago but I read about the Spanish conquest of Mexico. The Tlaxcalians were the most brutal after the siege and the Spanish treated the city states that helped them win the war quite well. Even attempting to isolate people from Smallpox so they wouldn't get infected. Of course this is all very vague because I read this all 5-6 years ago.
I don't know what kind of history you read, but any narrative that paints the Natives as the 'aggressors' in the Spanish conquest is bullstuff. The Spaniards were brutal, violent monsters when it came to encomienda.

2595
Off Topic / Re: [NEWS] Feminists chant Allahu Akbar.
« on: January 26, 2017, 02:20:56 AM »
Sorry desertcigarettes but powerful Spain has all the land people want
humor aside, I do hope you actually recognize some of the hypocrisy here

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