Author Topic: Klein bottles: you know a glass vial is metal if it manages to defy everything.  (Read 5406 times)

A Klein bottle is physically impossible to superimpose on a three-dimensional universe, in the same way a sphere might appear to be only a growing then shrinking circle as it passed through a two dimensional plane. A theoretical physical model can only be approximated, since we're only seeing a "sliver" of it in 3-D space.
Too bad no one has figured out how humans can perceive the fourth dimension of matter.

In Math it should. In reality, no.
You can pour a fluid onto a flat surface and it still doesn't disappear.

There is nothing weird about a klein bottle. The craziest thing about it is four dimensions, but no one makes topics about the insanity of hypercubes.

Too bad no one has figured out how humans can perceive the fourth dimension of matter.



 :cookieMonster:


You can pour a fluid onto a flat surface and it still doesn't disappear.

Yes. But Mathamatically you cannot prove that a Klein Bottle has a defined volume.

Yes. But Mathamatically you cannot prove that a Klein Bottle has a defined volume.
If by "volume" you mean amount of volume it can contain, then you cannot define that for any unclosed shape. If by "volume" you mean area it occupies, then a Klein bottle can be proved to have volume.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 04:10:57 PM by Doomonkey »

If by "volume" you mean area it occupies, then a Klein bottle can be proved to have volume.

Thats Area, not Volume.

If by "volume" you mean amount of volume it can contain, then you cannot define that for any unclosed shape.

The Klein bottle is closed and open at the same time.


Thats Area, not Volume.
Volume is the amount of matter/space to the power of 3 an object takes up.
So yes, Doomonkey is right. That is Volume.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 04:32:15 PM by TheChaosCarrier »

How to prove a Klein bottle has volume.

A 1 dimensional shape has: length
A 2 dimensional shape has: area (length^2)
A 3 dimensional shape has: volume (length^3)

In order to get the one sided shapes such as a Möbius strip or Klein bottle, you take a shape from the dimension down and contort through the current dimension. Meaning you kind of need to subtract 1 dimension from it's potential measure of size. Take the following examples.

A 1 dimensional 1 sided shape: does not exist (kind of)
A 2 dimensional 1 sided shape (for example: a line bent in a circle, but not the area inside of the circle because that would make it two sided) has: length
A 3 dimensional 1 sided shape (Möbius strip) has: area (length^2)
A 4 dimensional 1 sided shape (Klein bottle), therefore, must have: volume (length^3)

In reality, anything that exists exists in all dimensions and therefore it's size would be measured in length^(number of dimensions). But in mathematics, shapes can exist in the amount of dimensions you want them to, and because the Klein bottle is a mathematical shape, it has volume.

EDIT: Over some thinking a realized that a Klein bottle might just be defined by the fact it has only volume. For example: A solid sphere is a three dimensional shape with only one side, so why is a Möbius strip special? I imagine it must be because the Möbius strip is a 2 dimensional shape contorted to exist in the three dimensional world, so it only has area instead of volume. The same principle applies to the Klein bottle, what defines it is that it only has volume instead length^4.

EDIT EDIT Because it came up:
I use length^dimension because we don't have a name for fourth and beyond dimensional measurements, so it keeps it consistent an easier to understand. Substituting L^2 for LW or L^3 for LWH or L^4 for LWH(IV) doesn't change my point.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 04:55:19 PM by Doomonkey »

What the hell do you mean "according to math it shouldn't exist" or "according to math any liquid inside it will disappear"?? Do you know how rediculous it sounds?

You pour stuff in the bottom hole, flip it around, and now the liquid is on the bottom
Wtf is so complicated about it

How to prove a Klein bottle has volume.

A 1 dimensional shape has: length
A 2 dimensional shape has: area (length^2)
A 3 dimensional shape has: volume (length^3)

In order to get the one sided shapes such as a Möbius strip or Klein bottle, you take a shape from the dimension down and contort through the current dimension. Meaning you kind of need to subtract 1 dimension from it's potential measure of size. Take the following examples.

A 1 dimensional 1 sided shape: does not exist (kind of)
A 2 dimensional 1 sided shape (for example: a line bent in a circle, but not the area inside of the circle because that would make it two sided) has: length
A 3 dimensional 1 sided shape (Möbius strip) has: area (length^2)
A 4 dimensional 1 sided shape (Klein bottle), therefore, must have: volume (length^3)

In reality, anything that exists exists in all dimensions and therefore it's size would be measured in length^(number of dimensions). But in mathematics, shapes can exist in the amount of dimensions you want them to, and because the Klein bottle is a mathematical shape, it has volume.
Actually, the equations for Volume and area are v=L x W x H and a=L x W.

Of course though, for a 1 sided shape in dimensions 1-4 would be Length^3 for volume and Length^2 for area.
All other measurements are invalid due to there being only one side.

What the hell do you mean "according to math it shouldn't exist" or "according to math any liquid inside it will disappear"?? Do you know how rediculous it sounds?

You pour stuff in the bottom hole, flip it around, and now the liquid is on the bottom
Wtf is so complicated about it
I take it you're failing your math classes?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 04:47:46 PM by TheChaosCarrier »

I take it you're failing your math classes?
you could not POSSIBLY be more wrong with that statement.

you could not POSSIBLY be more wrong with that statement.
Then you must be handicapped or trolling.
Or not in highschool yet.

It's Algebra to very advanced level. Of course you wouldn't understand it, simpleton.

you could not POSSIBLY be more wrong with that statement.
congratulations on making >100 on every single assignment you've had in your current math class




 :cookieMonster:
this isn't the fourth dimension, this is a .gif with two mesh boxes moving within themselves, it is also physically impossible because for this to happen, parts of the mesh would have to become longer and shorter. it could be done with some kind of stretchy material, but stretchy materials are not rigid enough to hold the shape well.