Author Topic: This is why I kept my views on feminism away from my family. (Read 22998 times)

Rally · September 24, 2015, 07:01:34 PM

Quote from: Shift Kitty on September 24, 2015, 12:21:45 PM

Any sources to cite or explanations?
Have you read anything in the thread at all?
Because that post itself just seems like a lot of whining about responsibility.

It's this stuff that makes the entire movement a joke. Instead of addressing anything I said you made a very bad attempt at photo-shopping a trilby onto my head and made a bunch of irrelevant claims. I don't need to cite my opinions or my criticisms of the movement. (Unless you're talking about the wage gap myth, in which case all it takes is about 5 seconds of googling. Should honestly just be common knowledge at this point.)

It's not my responsibility to help anyone get special benefits for no reason at all. That's the fundamental flaw in feminism, you're trying to tell me what my mandate is instead of empowering each other from within the movement itself.

Source: My left ass cheek. Bite me.

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Shift Kitty · September 24, 2015, 07:08:08 PM

Quote from: Rally on September 24, 2015, 07:01:34 PM

It's this stuff that makes the entire movement a joke. Instead of addressing anything I said you made a very bad attempt at photo-shopping a trilby onto my head and made a bunch of irrelevant claims. I don't need to cite my opinions or my criticisms of the movement. (Unless you're talking about the wage gap myth, in which case all it takes is about 5 seconds of googling. Should honestly just be common knowledge at this point.)

It's not my responsibility to help anyone get special benefits for no reason at all. That's the fundamental flaw in feminism, you're trying to tell me what my mandate is instead of empowering each other from within the movement itself.

Source: My left ass cheek. Bite me.

I also asked if you read anything in the thread because everything has been addressed plus some on multiple occasions. It's not my fault you chose not to read it, and instead ask for it to be posted again.

But here it is anyway.

Quote from: otto-san on September 23, 2015, 10:04:12 PM

i personally prefer to believe the majority of the wage gap that exists is not accounted for by individually lowered wages since that is illegal, although realistically this is hard to prove in court in many cases, and traditionally businesses like to stretch the law wherever they find they're able. i do not, however, agree that men and women must be delegated to certain jobs be nature. this is purely a result of cultural influence, and there's no reason why a civilised society today should rely on primitive hunter-gatherer customs. in essence, my argument in this area goes back to gender roles and their tendency to cause social and economic equality by creating stereotypical expectations for men and women that lead them into particular fields.
true, however it's worth noting i was looking at abortion/birth control from a specifically feminist point of view, that it can be seen and argued as an issue of women's rights. the validity of those arguments isn't necessarily my concern, that's not what i'm meaning to promote, the purpose of stating all these points is to say that feminism is still an ideology geared toward the advancement of women's liberty and equality in society, and the widespread argument of abortion/birth control from the perspective of women's rights supports that claim. my statements about stigma concerning pregnancy and motherhood still stand.
there is no reason why we should live in the modern world bound by hunter-gatherer tactics. we have the medical power today to ensure that pregnant women and infants can survive and be safe, as well as sufficient safety from nature. gender roles are not tools; they are cultural expectations by their very definition (obligatory wikipedia link for additional information). the effect you are observing with men is a negative outcome of gender roles; men and women have these cultural expectations impressed upon them from birth, and as a result these expectations quickly become natural to them. this is why it's incredibly difficult to study gender differences in a vacuum, gender socialisation (some links: 1 2 3) begins at the very youngest age. if your hypothesis about the source of male Self Delete rates is true, i would contend that this is a result of internal conflict concerning the cultural pressure to act as a sole provider in a time of relatively poor economic prosperity where fulfilling that role is significantly more difficult, and not the result of people's supposed natural tendencies being overstepped by feminists. the very idea that one would so easily push their nature would, in my mind, act as evidence against the idea that that nature truly exists; instinct is inescapable.
women are have significantly less direct representation. there is an incredibly apparent difference in the numbers of male and female representatives in public office. this again ultimately ends up back at gender roles, but the heart of the claim is that males most closely hold the majority of political power in western governments, therefore women have much lesser direct political influence in comparison to males.
you've probably heard it before, so i won't spend too much time on it. media (television, games, movies, books, etc.) typically presents men and women as more idealised models that fit a cultural archetype, which perpetuates detrimental gender stereotypes and expectations that can negatively affect individuals by causing them to feel naturally pressured to conform to unrealistic standards. gender roles again oops
admittedly my opinion on this topic is less-developed than mine on other topics. this is another point where i was simply pointing out an area where feminism works in areas that are perceived to contain some form inequality.

i've said it a couple of times in all that; my point in listing those topics was to show that feminism is still applicable in western culture and is being used in ways that are actually legitimate rather than petty. whether or not you agree is a matter of your own personal ideological alignment, but what i mean to express is that feminism isn't an effectively dead movement.

Rally · September 24, 2015, 07:21:58 PM

He's not supporting the myth though? He's saying the stereotypical female job pays less than the stereotypical male job. He's not saying women earn less money for the exact same work. That's the myth. To an extent I can agree with him, feminists encouraging other women to get a useless degree in gender studies will probably hinder their ability to achieve a high salary.

You should try a bit harder to comprehend what I'm saying before trying to put me on blast for something I don't actually disagree with.

Quote from: Shift Kitty on September 24, 2015, 07:08:08 PM

I also asked if you read anything in the thread

Keep in mind that by the time I go to sleep and wake up the next morning around 20 pages of unintelligible yelling gets posted in this thread due to my timezone. However if there's another key point you think I missed and you would like to point it out to me to it I will be happy to tell you why you are wrong.