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Author Topic: POLITICS & DONALD Annoying Orange MEGATHREAD  (Read 2224723 times)



here's a free house ... We noticed you are trained to fix machines, please uphold your end of the bargain by fixing a machine every once in a while.

Is the house really free if it's part of a contract where you do hard labor in exchange for it? This really just sounds like a threat disguised as an offer. What really happens if they say no, I don't want to mine coal in exchange for the same reward as the dude washing dishes at McDonalds? Just give him the house anyway? Let him die of exposure/starvation? Put him in the Gulag?

What about people with no training/workable skills? Do we just assign them jobs that they may or may not have any passion for? Or do they sit at home drinking beer and watching TV while I shovel fish? I understand that I could justify this by telling myself that shoveling fish for the rest of my pathetic life is my true purpose, but realistically speaking if I was fully accommodated to watch TV and drink beer all day I'd probably be more relaxed and happy albeit with a small factor of guilt in the back of my mind that says I could be shoveling fish right now instead.

In addendum, most people feel a basic instinct to return a favor in whatever way they can, by contributing to society using their skills. They will likely understand that contributions to society in return for its support is what keeps it running, and knowing that they are essentially helping society function gives them purpose, meaning. Purpose is the ultimate incentive, and will likely not be ignored.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to live in a society where the only thing I have to do is what I love doing, for the sole reason that I think it's the right thing to do. I think everyone would. But this sounds like you're betting hundreds of thousands of lives on people doing the right thing because their moral compass is telling them to. This isn't a problem for some people. I've met plenty of people in the south that are more than willing to help the less fortunate in exchange for nothing but self satisfaction that they're doing a good thing for their community.

What do we do with the bad apples? The people who say forget it, it's not fair that I have to mine coal while somebody else just gets to sit around and drink beer and watch TV. I'm not going to work anymore until the government gives me a Lamborghini. Obviously, the guy is an starfish for ignoring his primal and instinctive will to follow his divine purpose, and probably isn't that much of a problem on his own, so just let him be.

But this behavior probably spreads pretty fast, right? I mean how hard can it be to convince someone that they deserve more for harder work? What if it causes instability in the community, I.E. all the coal miners refuse to mine coal and we all lose power and heat because of it? Should we take their house and food away for failing to keep up their end of the bargain?

Is the house really free if it's part of a contract where you do hard labor in exchange for it? This really just sounds like a threat disguised as an offer. What really happens if they say no, I don't want to mine coal in exchange for the same reward as the dude washing dishes at McDonalds? Just give him the house anyway? Let him die of exposure/starvation? Put him in the Gulag?
You recieve the house regardless of your ability to fulfill you end of the bargain. A sense of social obligation is more than enough to persuade people to give something in return.
What about people with no training/workable skills? Do we just assign them jobs that they may or may not have any passion for? Or do they sit at home drinking beer and watching TV while I shovel fish? I understand that I could justify this by telling myself that shoveling fish for the rest of my pathetic life is my true purpose, but realistically speaking if I was fully accommodated to watch TV and drink beer all day I'd probably be more relaxed and happy albeit with a small factor of guilt in the back of my mind that says I could be shoveling fish right now instead.
Besides the fact that we have the capability to mechanize the insanely mundane tasks, think of it this way. Bill Gates has a net worth of damn near $100 billion. If the people controlled that wealth, there would definitely be enough spare resources to accomodate the lazy and the disabled. However, you seem to misunderstand something fundamental. Why would laziness exist, if you were free to pursue training in whatever you wished? Unless you feel your life purpose is drawing extremely obscure special interest art, there is going to be a desire somewhere for the service you offer. You are contributing to society by fulfilling another's wants, while pursuing a hobby. Let's kill two birds with one stone, though. Let's say you don't know what you want to do, and society is short on food handlers. The people get together and decide they require food handlers, and are willing to offer higher rewards for currently unemployed people to work as food handlers. You feel indifferent towards food handling, but you enjoy becoming a more valued individual for handling that food.
What do we do with the bad apples? The people who say forget it, it's not fair that I have to mine coal while somebody else just gets to sit around and drink beer and watch TV. I'm not going to work anymore until the government gives me a Lamborghini. Obviously, the guy is an starfish for ignoring his primal and instinctive will to follow his divine purpose, and probably isn't that much of a problem on his own, so just let him be.

But this behavior probably spreads pretty fast, right? I mean how hard can it be to convince someone that they deserve more for harder work? What if it causes instability in the community, I.E. all the coal miners refuse to mine coal and we all lose power and heat because of it? Should we take their house and food away for failing to keep up their end of the bargain?
Socialism is founded on collective bargaining. If coal miners feel they are being short-changed, they exercise their right to have a say in the democratic process. Society will work to accomodate them. What I don't understand, however, is what reason these coal miners would have to be greedy. Keep in mind, there would be no such thing as a commodity, only an item produced to meet human need. There would not be stuffty mattresses and luxury mattresses distributed based on percieved value of the recipient, there would be a standard mattress. Mattress isn't good enough? Ask the mattress producers to make better mattresses. Why wouldn't they? They use those mattressess too, you know. There's no incentive to create lower quality mattresses to encourage the buying of a more expensive mattress like there would be under capitalism.

If this all sounds idealistic, it's because this state cannot be reached until society begins to understand the merit of this system, whether naturally as a response to the inevitable worsening of conditions under capitalism (http://www.massline.org/PolitEcon/crises/Crises01.htm) or a competent leader persuading masses. It is possible, and it is worth working towards.

kimon was probably alt right all along
maybe the alt right are actually democrats who are trying to trick people to stop being righties by being handicapped

Let's kill two birds with one stone, though. Let's say you don't know what you want to do, and society is short on food handlers. The people get together and decide they require food handlers, and are willing to offer higher rewards for currently unemployed people to work as food handlers. You feel indifferent towards food handling, but you enjoy becoming a more valued individual for handling that food.
doesnt this lead to capitalism cause someone is gonna be handing out the rewards

and if it is communal decision, then you run into communication problems, eg it takes too damn long to do anything. look up the mythical man month and understand why adding people to a project makes it harder to reach a deadline. then look at your ideal society and how decentralized the chain of command is. theres a reason why true democracies dont exist - its just infeasible on the scale society is as of now
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 12:59:41 AM by Conan »

doesnt this lead to capitalism cause someone is gonna be handing out the rewards
Not really, no. As I noted later though, the concept of rewards would be relatively abstract, as goods are produced solely for human consumption.
and if it is communal decision, then you run into communication problems, eg it takes too damn long to do anything. look up the mythical man month and understand why adding people to a project makes it harder to reach a deadline. then look at your ideal society and how decentralized the chain of command is. theres a reason why true democracies dont exist - its just infeasible on the scale society is as of now
That's a fair point. I'm not totally against representative democracy in which the people elect someone who will represent them on a large scale, if the people are given the power to actually tell this representative what to do lest they replace them with a different representative. On a small scale, if the area is self-sufficient, it would be reasonable to allow them to function independently and on whichever scale is appropriate for efficient democracy. Nations as we know them may become unnecessary in favor of efficiency.

Quick note: Keep in mind, I don't have the answers to every question you may have. There are a lot of cases in which things may need to vary slightly or greatly to accommodate the circumstances, but the point is that I am working towards a sustainable state in which these conditions are possible before we begin making specific adjustments for specific cases.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 01:12:52 AM by Karl Marx »

Correct

wew

A sense of social obligation is more than enough to persuade people to give something in return.

WEW

wew

WEW
You're saying if someone gave you a free house and then later said "Hey can you do me a favor and help me out with my spice garden" or some stuff you'd say no? That's not really normal.

imagine being so handicapped you name your account after the man responsible for most of the 20th centuries atrocitys and support his ideals without remorse

imagine being so handicapped you name your account after the man responsible for most of the 20th centuries atrocitys and support his ideals without remorse
Cool post bro


I forget did i give you that script or did someone else?

I forget did i give you that script or did someone else?
I just found it again, new computer, it was linked by someone idk who for someone else on some thread.

You're saying if someone gave you a free house and then later said "Hey can you do me a favor and help me out with my spice garden" or some stuff you'd say no? That's not really normal.

hey are you trying to force your morals upon me?