POLITICS & DONALD Annoying Orange MEGATHREAD

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Cappytaino:

--- Quote from: otto-san on July 27, 2016, 12:46:34 PM ---it's also a fallacy to assume that something true of the parts is necessarily true of the whole.

the argument isn't just a lazy "ah yes, but those people aren't actually muslim." for it to count as a no true scotsman, you would have to be actively trying to dismiss the existence of real problems by just claiming that the criticism can't apply because it's not a part of the group. i've actually heard the no true scotsman fallacy used in anti-muslim argument as well, saying that the "good muslims" are supposedly not real muslims. it becomes a fallacy when it's used to avoid argumentation by simply excluding cases you don't want to include.
to be fair kimon isn't really being...unreasonable. like he's not being overly inflammatory and he's actually trying to bring up points. i mean i wouldn't have picked this battle knowing the blockland forums but like...come on dude.

--- End quote ---
but that's exactly the point I've been trying to make. I think we have the same idea, that often, people cherry pick terror statistics by attempting to claim that the attacker was not practicing Islam properly and therefore shouldn't be counted as a Muslim.

Psych36:

--- Quote from: Poliwhirl on July 27, 2016, 01:21:19 PM ---well you're right i suppose. racism wasn't the correct word to use in that sentence, but lets be real for a second i dont think using the word "islamaphobic" would have gone well either.

i looked into the 52% statistic, and found this:
"I’m hardly surprised that 52 per cent don’t think homoloveuality should be legal. They simply haven't had the time and space to evolve their thinking.

It's fuelled by secrecy.

Muslims don’t talk about difficult things related to relationships and love. On a religious level, it’s seen as taboo and on a more practical level, some British Muslims don’t share the native language of their parents, meaning those awkward conversations are lost in translation."
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/as-a-gay-british-muslim-this-is-what-i-think-of-the-survey-finding-over-half-of-british-muslims-want-a6978881.html

i think muslims can hold a lot of bigoted views, and so can christians, and that they will eventually change as the general culture of society grows more tolerant of homoloveuality. but the thing here is that while bigoted, they are not violent on a terroristic level, and so they are typically not so extreme as to be unable to change. i'm not going to overstep my own knowledge and state that the reason why many muslims are still stuck in a strict mindset is also because of the way islam is enforced in middle-eastern countries, because i don't know that. however, i think that given enough time, especially if crises in the middle east resolve, these mindsets can begin to change, but it WILL take time. (important to add: it will also take tolerance and understanding from others.)

--- End quote ---

The crises's in the middle east aren't the reasoning behind their bigotry it's only an excuse. I'm sure they can change but do they really want to? Unless secularism is adopted by the people of the middle east there will only ever be despots.

Psych36:

--- Quote from: Bisjac on July 27, 2016, 01:25:11 PM ---so sanders and Annoying Orange supporters inherently like to discuss politics, while hillary people are just really private?
that still dosnt answer my question actually.

--- End quote ---

Because Hillary supporters are lowkey ashamed of the criminal they support and have no valid discourse to present.

otto-san:

--- Quote from: Cappytaino on July 27, 2016, 01:25:18 PM ---but that's exactly the point I've been trying to make. I think we have the same idea, that often, people cherry pick terror statistics by attempting to claim that the attacker was not practicing Islam properly and therefore shouldn't be counted as a Muslim.

--- End quote ---
fair enough, though the heart of the argument was really more so that those terror attacks are politically motivated, not religiously inspired

--- Quote from: Psych36 on July 27, 2016, 01:26:11 PM ---
The crises's in the middle east aren't the reasoning behind their bigotry it's only an excuse. I'm sure they can change but do they really want to?

--- End quote ---
if your entire life is stuff and you're scared and you have no power to do anything about it, unconventional means are the natural progression. that's why protests, riots, and rebellions happen. they aren't going to want to change because these methods are all they can think to do. obviously that doesn't mean it's right, but people are a product of their environment above all else

edit: upon thinking about what you said for more than a second you're referring to something else and all i have to say is that traditional prejudice is dumb and it's a human problem, not just a muslim problem

Poliwhirl:

--- Quote from: Psych36 on July 27, 2016, 01:26:11 PM ---
The crises's in the middle east aren't the reasoning behind their bigotry it's only an excuse. I'm sure they can change but do they really want to?

--- End quote ---
they dont want to. nobody truly wants to. but change isn't sparked by people suddenly deciding that they WANT to change their views. it takes time and other people explaining directly or indirectly why that kind of bigotry generally isn't accepted for people to realize that maybe they shouldn't think like that. i mean that hasn't TRULY happened for the general populous anywhere, so it might take quite some time, but i'm almost positive that it will begin to change. or maybe that's just optimism.
--- Quote from: Bisjac on July 27, 2016, 01:25:11 PM ---so sanders and Annoying Orange supporters inherently like to discuss politics, while hillary people are just really private?
that still dosnt answer my question actually.

--- End quote ---
it is my personal belief that the people who support her are either doing it to prevent a Annoying Orange presidency, dont care enough to support her/ pay attention beyond shes a woman and shes a clinton, or they are getting payed to support her and they just aren't getting payed enough to CONSISTENTLY support her.

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