Author Topic: Forza 6 Apex Beta: A Forza game has finally come to PC (Read 2369 times)

AtlasBlue · May 07, 2016, 09:01:27 PM

There's got to be a catch somewhere. Is there microtransactions?

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Ipquarx · May 07, 2016, 09:06:54 PM

Quote from: e-maxx on May 07, 2016, 08:31:20 PM

i don't understand why you guys hate windows 10 so much

-Major privacy issues
-Forced auto-upgrading and forced restarts
-Arbitrarily disabled options unless you buy enterprise version, alienating more experienced users
-Etc

It's not just because it's "trendy."

Quote from: McJob on May 07, 2016, 08:30:41 PM

-snip-

You're right, it's easier to stick with just one. But by using only one they're alienating around half of their userbase. It's not by any means unreasonable to use both. You could just as easily not implement all of the same super-duper high end graphics upgrades to the DX11 version if it's really that difficult, but don't make it completely unavailable. It makes no sense from both a financial standpoint and a user experience standpoint. You're essentially saying "If you don't want to use windows 10, forget off." People don't appreciate that.

McJob · May 07, 2016, 09:23:13 PM

Quote from: AtlasBlue on May 07, 2016, 09:01:27 PM

There's got to be a catch somewhere. Is there microtransactions?

Yeah, you can pay to unlock some of the vehicles early, but everything can also be earned by just playing the game.

Quote from: Ipquarx on May 07, 2016, 09:06:54 PM

It's not by any means unreasonable to use both.

There's a limited amount of people on staff, and the people who work specifically on rendering the game's graphics (and by extension the very core framework of the engine) are usually limited and highly specialised. DX12 is new, there's no many people who know how to take advantage of it, and Turn10 is on Microsoft's money.

Quote from: Ipquarx on May 07, 2016, 09:06:54 PM

You could just as easily not implement all of the same super-duper high end graphics upgrades to the DX11 version if it's really that difficult

Not really, though. Forza 6 would loving die on launch if it didn't have anything to compete with Project: CARS and Driveclub. Being the first real DirectX 12 game is a major selling point, but it means the team need to spend time digging into the documentation to find all of the really amazing stuff they can show off.

Quote from: Ipquarx on May 07, 2016, 09:06:54 PM

It makes no sense from both a financial standpoint and a user experience standpoint.

Financial:
-> Pushes Windows 10
-> Pushes DirectX 12
-> Pushes Windows Store

User
-> The chance to experience a well developed DirectX 12 game and benchmark performance
-> Xbox Exclusives now coming to the Windows platform, and Xbox exclusives are generally coded using one specific type of renderer
-> Something different to the other racing games listed above

Insert Name Here� · May 07, 2016, 09:26:29 PM

Quote from: McJob on May 07, 2016, 09:23:13 PM

Yeah, you can pay to unlock some of the vehicles early, but everything can also be earned by just playing the game.

Would vehicles be earned after a fair amount of time? Or will it be one of those stuff "Do X for 10 days to earn this car that is 0.05 times better than your current one!"

Hopefully it's the former

McJob · May 07, 2016, 09:29:44 PM

Quote from: Insert Name Here� on May 07, 2016, 09:26:29 PM

Would vehicles be earned after a fair amount of time? Or will it be one of those stuff "Do X for 10 days to earn this car that is 0.05 times better than your current one!"

You get points for completing races. Earning a certain amount of points will give you a medal. If you get enough medals, you unlock cars. I've gotten a heap of cars after just 4 races, and getting points are super easy.

You also get cars for just completing career races, regardless of medal count.

Ipquarx · May 07, 2016, 09:37:45 PM

Quote from: McJob on May 07, 2016, 09:23:13 PM

There's a limited amount of people on staff, and the people who work specifically on rendering the game's graphics (and by extension the very core framework of the engine) are usually limited and highly specialised. DX12 is new, there's no many people who know how to take advantage of it, and Turn10 is on Microsoft's money.

Again, yes it's easier to focus on DX12 alone. That doesn't make it okay to ignore DX11 entirely. Nothing you said is preventing them from spending a quarter of the time that they spend on the DX12 version to develop a DX11 version. You can still reuse most of the code and cut out incompatible or unnecessary features to save time. Of course it would be a challenge, but that's the norm for game programming.

Quote from: McJob on May 07, 2016, 09:23:13 PM

Not really, though. Forza 6 would loving die on launch if it didn't have anything to compete with Project: CARS and Driveclub. Being the first real DirectX 12 game is a major selling point, but it means the team need to spend time digging into the documentation to find all of the really amazing stuff they can show off.

I'm not saying they should hobble their DX12 work. It's good work. But spending time to make it work and look decent on DX11 brings in more customers. It's extremely basic, the more customers you get the better. Having something that's nearly as good graphics-wise as the DX12 version is a hell of a lot better than having none at all.

Quote from: McJob on May 07, 2016, 09:23:13 PM

Financial:
-> Pushes Windows 10
-> Pushes DirectX 12
-> Pushes Windows Store

User
-> The chance to experience a well developed DirectX 12 game and benchmark performance
-> Xbox Exclusives now coming to the Windows platform, and Xbox exclusives are generally coded using one specific type of renderer
-> Something different to the other racing games listed above

Financial:
-> Alienate half of your potential userbase, as a result halve your profits when you could have spent a quarter of the time that you spent on DX12 on DX11 and significantly increased profits
-> Create future distaste for your brand and products by misguidedly restricting the OS you can play on, lowering profits in the future as well

User:
-> Alienate people who don't want to upgrade their OS for legitimate reasons
-> No longer able to enjoy the game they want to play because of greedy decisions
-> Forced to use products and technology that they don't want or need

e-maxx · May 07, 2016, 09:39:26 PM

Quote from: Ipquarx on May 07, 2016, 09:06:54 PM

It's not just because it's "trendy."
You're right, it's easier to stick with just one. But by using only one they're alienating around half of their userbase. It's not by any means unreasonable to use both. You could just as easily not implement all of the same super-duper high end graphics upgrades to the DX11 version if it's really that difficult, but don't make it completely unavailable. It makes no sense from both a financial standpoint and a user experience standpoint. You're essentially saying "If you don't want to use windows 10, forget off." People don't appreciate that.

you sound a lot like a windows XP/vista user around the time direct x 11 came out
Forza 6 is supposed to be a next gen game there's seriously no point in them using dx11 when dx12 looks and preforms marginally better.
Also has then been any actual proof that microsoft is using the data they "collect" for evil purposes? I mean just because its in the windows 10 ToS doesn't mean they haven't been doing it for ages.

Quote from: Ipquarx on May 07, 2016, 09:37:45 PM

Again, yes it's easier to focus on DX12 alone. That doesn't make it okay to ignore DX11 entirely. Nothing you said is preventing them from spending a quarter of the time that they spend on the DX12 version to develop a DX11 version. You can still reuse most of the code and cut out incompatible or unnecessary features to save time. Of course it would be a challenge, but that's the norm for game programming.

You do realize turn 10 studios is very tiny company? they probably don't even have 1/3 of the staff that a AAA dev does.

Ipquarx · May 07, 2016, 09:41:34 PM

Quote from: e-maxx on May 07, 2016, 09:39:26 PM

You do realize turn 10 studios is very tiny company? they probably don't even have 1/3 of the staff that a AAA dev does.

Of course. I said they could dedicate a quarter of the time that they're currently spending on the DX12 rendering to DX11 rendering and make it look nearly as good, bringing in significantly more profit as a result. Not to spend more time or more manpower, just use the time they have more wisely.

Quote from: e-maxx on May 07, 2016, 09:39:26 PM

you sound a lot like a windows XP/vista user around the time direct x 11 came out

Whatever qualms people had with windows 7 are much different than the concerns about windows 10. I've gone into detail about the legitimate reasons for not wanting to upgrade and I'm not going to get into them here.

SpongeCraft1212 · May 07, 2016, 09:56:01 PM

*sigh* Here we go again....

ThatDarkNinja778 · May 07, 2016, 10:00:42 PM

Wow I'm surprised this even runs on my computer in the first place, I don't even meet the minimum requirements. Like yeah there's a bunch of frameskipping in certain places even on the lowest settings, but it's playable and I've been able to complete 2 races as of now.

Insert Name Here� · May 07, 2016, 10:08:59 PM

Quote from: McJob on May 07, 2016, 09:29:44 PM

You get points for completing races. Earning a certain amount of points will give you a medal. If you get enough medals, you unlock cars. I've gotten a heap of cars after just 4 races, and getting points are super easy.

You also get cars for just completing career races, regardless of medal count.

That's really good to hear

Sideswipe · May 07, 2016, 11:22:37 PM

Quote from: Ipquarx on May 07, 2016, 01:58:00 PM

Honestly forget them for requiring windows 10. That's some serious bullstuff.

shitlord · May 07, 2016, 11:24:20 PM

dont get ipquarx started on windows 10

McJob · May 08, 2016, 12:30:43 AM

I have no interest in continuing a fight that is clearly about your distaste in Windows 10 and not about the game in any way, shape or form, but I will leave these final words from me:

My friend does rendering tech at Tt Games for DirectX 9 and DirectX 11. Day in, day out, he's constantly working on it. Making tweaks, changes, optimisations, bug fixes and all kinds of stuff. His hobby, outside of work, is making a custom, personal use renderer. The entire thing is literally just a renderer. It takes a single model and renders it out via DirectX. He's spent ages on this loving thing and it's far from done.

Renderers aren't some tiny bit of code that you spend 10 minutes on and WHAM! you're all done. The renderer is the very core of the game engine, and it sets up how and when other parts of the game, such as scripts, physics, audio etc are able to communicate in. The renderer is also responsible for communicating with Windows directly. People don't just do rendering engines after being a general programmer; you have to specialise in it.

I feel like you're in the same position I was in when Halo 2 Vista launched, and I was firmly a believer in XP. The big difference here is that this is a game using very new, state-of-the-art tech (Halo 2 Vista's only Vista-required feature was that a single level needed to address a 64MB level cache to RAM which wasn't possible in XP; the XP fix program basically intercepted the call and then sent the file as two chunks, and then handled communication between RAM and Halo2Vista.exe during that level) that very few people have touched and that people are absolutely adoring right now. I'm really sorry that you can't be a part of it, but you made the choice and you live with the consequences. I know far more people who enjoy and love Windows 10 than those who don't, and this game is just the icing on the cake.

Very excited to give the Top Gear track a trial tonight. Just going to finish some programming stuff and then I'll dive in.