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| "See how machine learning is helping us tackle gender bias in movies." |
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| McZealot:
--- Quote from: Tactical Nuke on May 17, 2017, 04:25:11 AM ---Except they are Mary Sues because they're terrible characters that are somehow the best at everything. Their weaknesses are just that -- weak. --- End quote --- Fantasy characters are inherently idealized versions of real people since the entire genre is based around wish-fulfillment. They both have weaknesses but there are real reasons why they would be less profound than those of Luke. Rey doesn't learn faster than Luke--she starts better than him. She grew up scavenging and fighting and was already unusually competent in physical conflicts and engineering. Not to mention she's born extremely proficient in the force, which obviously gives her a boost in areas such as lightsaber combat and using force on the guards. I'd elaborate on Jyn but that whole movie was so forgettable I don't really want to refresh myself on the plot. It's possible for some characters to actually be more capable than others without being feminist brainwashing to subjugates the male gender via idealized characters. Bad character writing isn't neccesarily a 'Mary Sue'. The way under which the term is used is frequently really loveist. Male power fantasies are constant and all around--they have been for literally thousands of years. Whenever a modern film depicts a world in which a woman is treated the same way they are immediately called feminist idealists and terrible writers as though the fact that the character is female changes anything about the trope. --- Quote from: Tactical Nuke on May 17, 2017, 04:25:11 AM ---Notice how Rey can fly the Millenium Falcon about as good as Han can upon her first time booting it up. She learns the Jedi mind trick on her own without any outside assistance whatsoever. She isn't even let on that such a thing exists before she pulls it off. She also can easily overpower Kylo Ren, one of the Knights of Ren, trained by Luke Skywalker, despite never even having held a lightsaber before. In fact, the one time she touches a lightsaber she runs away into the woods by herself out of fear. What are her weaknesses? Can you name any? Her character flips on a dime when it's convenient for the plot. She tells BB-8 to forget off, and then about five seconds later she becomes its sole guardian. She wants to leave Jakku, then she leaves Jakku and immediately wants to go back. She tells Finn not to leave the gang, then she has the lightsaber episode and immediately runs off on her own and actively shoos away anyone who follows her. --- End quote --- You know why she's so exceptionally powerful? Because it's a fantasy. The whole concept of fighting with laser-swords is ridiculous. Someone being born good at fighting with laser swords isn't even remotely ridiculous in context. She's good at laser-sword fighting because in the plot she was born good at that sort of thing. This isn't insane--since she's basically the most competent Jedi of her generation, it only makes sense she would be naturally proficient in dueling. --- Quote from: Rally on May 17, 2017, 04:32:25 AM ---Luke forgets up perpetually and needs help in almost every single aspect of every movie he's in. It took Luke a long time training with the loving Grand Master of the Jedi Order to learn the force and by the end of it he couldn't even use the force to lift the ship he crashed out of the swamp. Luke was also a huge childish starfish for a good portion of his character development, Rey basically had no character development at all, she was just the same brave strong bad-ass super soldier she was since we met her on some desert island where there's nothing to do all day. --- End quote --- Luke was born as a farmer while Rey was born in a much more dangerous environment under which she actively scavenged shipwrecks for money. Is it possible that some characters are just more suited to be action heros? Rey had appropriate skills for her character. Unrealistically competent and powerful--but that is the entire nature of the fantasy genre. --- Quote from: Rally on May 17, 2017, 04:32:25 AM ---Meanwhile, Rey doesn't even know the force exists one day, and the next day she's using loving Jedi mind tricks to escape Kylo Ren's prison. She stumbles across the millennium falcon trying to get off Tatooine Jakku and instantly knows how to pilot it despite having no experience. She can also pinpoint the exact problem and repair it when the millennium falcon breaks even when loving Han Solo himself couldn't figure it out. I shouldn't even have to mention defeating a Sith Lord trained by Luke Skywalker. --- End quote --- She figures out how to pilot the ship because she grew up working with derelict technology and was a natural engineer. Han Solo meanwhile is far more involved in the action of actually flying the thing--he never was a particularly good engineer. She gets lucky with her force-abilities, and even surprises herself by managing to overwhelm the guard with the force. This is of course within the realm of possibility, since she's probably Luke's daughter and is undisputably the most powerful Jedi of the generation. She has a natural attraction towards Luke's lightsaber so it makes sense that she is unusually proficient in combat--she was competent in battle beforehand anyway--while using said lightsaber. She wasn't outstanding and Kylo Ren was destroying her in the fight until she got lucky towards the end. Not to mention--he was injured. At his full strength she wouldn't have beat Kylo. --- Quote from: Rally on May 17, 2017, 04:32:25 AM ---"Generic fantasy protagonist" doesn't work when you're pandering to the fans of an already established fantasy saga that has established rules. --- End quote --- Yes--generic rules that include laser-swords and space-magic. The whole idea is that Rey was born usually powerful and as is the trope in 'coming of age' fantasy tales she is realizing her power and becoming great far faster than one could in reality. That's not a "Mary Sue"--that's just a staple of the genre. --- Quote from: Rally on May 17, 2017, 04:32:25 AM ---Finn was also a poorly written character. Are you going to call me tribal now? --- End quote --- No, just loving stupid. They're pretty much all bad characters--just not 'Mary Sues'. |
| Rally:
--- Quote from: McZealot on May 17, 2017, 06:18:20 PM ---Luke was born as a farmer while Rey was born in a much more dangerous environment under which she actively scavenged shipwrecks for money. --- End quote --- The only thing this means is that she should be just as exceptionally forgeted as everyone else on Jakku. Luke needed the help of several people, including Anakin Skywalker's mentor and arguably one of the best smuggler/pilots in the entire universe, to get off Tatooine. Rey is handed a hefty imperial serving of "you're forgeted" and finds her own way off the planet with one clueless storm-trooper in tow. --- Quote from: McZealot on May 17, 2017, 06:18:20 PM --- Rey had appropriate skills for her character. Unrealistically competent and powerful--but that is the entire nature of the fantasy genre. She figures out how to pilot the ship because she grew up working with derelict technology and was a natural engineer. --- End quote --- How does pulling parts out of the same derelict crashed ship for years in exchange for pocket cash going to turn someone into a fighter pilot without actually having stepped in a ship before in their life? Sounds like stuffty, lazy design to me. --- Quote from: McZealot on May 17, 2017, 06:18:20 PM --- Han Solo meanwhile is far more involved in the action of actually flying the thing--he never was a particularly good engineer. --- End quote --- Yeah, that explains how she instantly out-smarts the combined efforts of Chewie and Han Solo, the sole pilots and engineers of the Millennium Falcon, having repaired the ship via their own competence in previous movies (with help). Not Rey though, she does it all on her own, within hours of stepping on the ship for the first time. --- Quote from: McZealot on May 17, 2017, 06:18:20 PM --- She gets lucky with her force-abilities, and even surprises herself by managing to overwhelm the guard with the force. This is of course within the realm of possibility, since she's probably Luke's daughter and is undisputably the most powerful Jedi of the generation. --- End quote --- --- Quote from: McZealot on May 17, 2017, 06:18:20 PM ---she got lucky towards the end. --- End quote --- Luke was Anakin Skywalker's son, considered to be probably the most powerful Jedi that ever lived, and still required extensive training in the force before ultimately failing several times. "Muh midichlorians" can't save you here. Yeah, "she got lucky" is basically the premise of the entire character. How is she not a slave on Jakku? Lucky. How did she randomly stumble across and then figure out how to repair the millennium falcon and evade trained imperial fighter pilots despite having never piloted before? Lucky. How does she pick up a blaster pistol and is instantly a better shot with it than the average storm trooper who does nothing but combat training their entire lives? Lucky. How does she beat a Sith Lord (who is so powerful he can manipulate loving light energy via the force) trained by Luke Skywalker, despite having 0 experience? Probably luck. In case you can't tell, this is the loving problem. Injured my ass. Kylo's defeat came not long after defeating Finn who has a lifetime of combat experience over Rey. Also < stops a sniper blaster rifle bolt mid-air after being ambushed from a position out of his visual range < fails to stop an inferior sublight bowcaster bolt, even while holding a lightsaber 'lucky' --- Quote from: McZealot on May 17, 2017, 06:18:20 PM ---Yes--generic rules that include laser-swords and space-magic. The whole idea is that Rey was born usually powerful and as is the trope in 'coming of age' fantasy tales she is realizing her power and becoming great far faster than one could in reality. That's not a "Mary Sue"--that's just a staple of the genre. --- End quote --- Anakin and Luke were both born "unusually powerful". Anakin was literally born of immaculate conception from the Force itself, do you remember what happened to Anakin? It never stopped them from having decent character design. --- Quote from: McZealot on May 17, 2017, 06:18:20 PM ---No, just loving stupid. They're pretty much all bad characters--just not 'Mary Sues'. --- End quote --- Yeah, I'm sure whatever convoluted difference there is here between 'Mary Sue' and 'hyper idealized character' isn't total semantic bullstuff. Are you seriously just grilling me on whether or not Rey is '''technically''' a mary sue or some other equivalent term? Also Ridley's performance was bad lol. Can't really blame her though because it's hard to get in-character when there is no character. |
| Mr.Noßody:
--- Quote from: Nonnel on May 16, 2017, 03:13:16 PM ---not all heroes wear capes --- End quote --- |
| e-maxx:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8 |
| McZealot:
--- Quote from: Rally on May 17, 2017, 06:46:40 PM ---Yeah, I'm sure whatever convoluted difference there is here between 'Mary Sue' and 'hyper idealized character' isn't total semantic bullstuff. Are you seriously just grilling me on whether or not Rey is '''technically''' a mary sue or some other equivalent term? --- End quote --- It's not semantics--I'm pointing out that she comes from a fantastic world in which people are essential 'superheroes' and tend to be extremely powerful with few flaws as the very concept of their being. I guess you could say they are all Mary Sues, but since that's kind-of the point of the whole fantasy genre it falls a little flat. It seems weird and can often come off as loveist when everyone freaks about Rey's idealism while surrounded by male characters of the same quality. Yea, you make some great points about the poor quality of the writing and frankly I thought the whole film was a bit stuff (being a straight rip from New Hope) but it's weird how people obsess over one character's crappy writing while the same quality of writing covers just about all the major characters of the series. |
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