The shifting politics of inequality and the class ceiling

Author Topic: The shifting politics of inequality and the class ceiling  (Read 7131 times)

when have we ever reached anywhere near equality without it? when was the last time there was no government in power yet law and order still somehow held up?
You can have a government / democracy without it being authoritarian.
"capitalism doesn't work because people act in self-interest but communism will work because people won't act in self-interest"
Self-interest under communism creates mutual prosperity regardless of intent. When the excess product inherent to labor is created, it is redistributed to others. If the individual wishes to create more for themselves, they will in turn create more surplus.

Bill Gates
you know he donates his money to charity too, right? I'd think you would support people willingly giving up their unneeded resources to benefit those less successful than themselves

or is that too much free market capitalism for you

You can have a government / democracy without it being authoritarian.
right, that's what most western governments are, but what's stopping one party holding all the power over the other? the will of the people?

Self-interest under communism creates mutual prosperity regardless of intent. When the excess product inherent to labor is created, it is redistributed to others. If the individual wishes to create more for themselves, they will in turn create more surplus.
but they made it for the sole purpose of doing what they wish with it; not to have to redistribute it (which they won't do easily unless a government or higher power steals from them)

of course I'm not trying to support no taxes either because that's also a handicapped form of anarchism

i have a solution. become a hive-mind, stellaris style.

But when you come to redistribution of resources, most people won't willingly give up their money or property, meaning you'll have to use force to seize property, which again will require some sort if governmental/military body.

You also are stealing in the most literal sense. Voting to steal from people doesn't change the fact that seizure of property by force is theft.

To my understanding, it involves the replacement of political parties with unions, in effect replacing the democracy of the elites with a democracy of the people. A decentralized government that democratically decides what laws to pass based on the consensus of a coalition of the working people.

and what prevents the unions from becoming the elites?

you know he donates his money to charity too, right? I'd think you would support people willingly giving up their unneeded resources to benefit those less successful than themselves

or is that too much free market capitalism for you
You act as though Microsoft doesn't benefit fron sweatshop labor, as if the mere existence of his outrageous amount of excess wealth does not actively contribute to the destruction of the middle class. It doesn't matter how often he donates to charity, he is still the epitome of disproportionately gaining from the labor of others.
But when you come to redistribution of resources, most people won't willingly give up their money or property, meaning you'll have to use force to seize property, which again will require some sort if governmental/military body.
There will be no forced seizure of property under communism, unless you are referring to the transformation of private property (property owned for the purpose of profit) to public property during the transition to socialism. There is no specifically agreed upon method of doing this, but the general idea is that all the needs of an individual will be met so long as enough people contribute to the system that ensures this same prosperity to everyone.

As far as incentives go, the right to pursue whatever you wish while your needs are met in full is a pretty good bargain. Motivating people to contribute won't be an issue.
and what prevents the unions from becoming the elites?
How would you become an elite in a society where the number of people who do not wish to starve not only outnumber you, but have access to the same resources as you? Willpower?

How would you become an elite in a society where the number of people who do not wish to starve not only outnumber you, but have access to the same resources as you? Willpower?

have you ever heard of a man named julius caesar?

with popular pressure, you can destroy a system in a time when it only needs reform.

have you ever heard of a man named julius caesar?
The dude who got stabbed to death because of the phenomenon I described?

The dude who got stabbed to death because of the phenomenon I described?

and his heir, octavian, went on to become who?

and his heir, octavian, went on to become who?
Not to interrupt the banter, but I'm not entirely sure Rome is the greatest example of what I'm trying to illustrate here. Unless I'm mistaken, Rome still relied heavily on slave labor, and I think it would be fair to say that the majority of Romans did not have access to the means of production or education available to society today. If nothing else, I would think people would reject cults of personality if they went through the effort of unrooting capitalism as a society.

You seem to be confusing economic equality for prosperity. Take for example a country like Somalia. Most people are equal  in the economic sense but that isn't indicative of prosperity.

Economic inequality doesn't mean something is inherently unfair. Correct me if I'm mistaken but you seem to be insinuating that equality of outcome is more important than equality of opportunity; that is to say, if I go to medical school and you flip burgers, it is inherently unfair that I make more money than you do despite spending many more years on my education and training?
In a classless society, doctors would still make more money than fast food workers. The difference is that there isn't an owner of the fast food restaurant who is making 10x what the other workers make.

basic rule of the internet: 99.9999% of the time its impossible to change anyone else's thoughts or perspective on something

basic rule of the internet: 99.9999% of the time its impossible to change anyone else's thoughts or perspective on something
My opinions have been shaped, for the most part, by internet discourse.

Letting people communicate almost anything they want to anyone in the world is a great way to spread, develop, and challenge ideas. Refusing to change your stance is evidence of stubbornness, not a failure of the miraculous innovation of communication technology.

In a classless society, doctors would still make more money than fast food workers. The difference is that there isn't an owner of the fast food restaurant who is making 10x what the other workers make.
where does the capital come from? In capitalism usually the owner of the business or investors will provide the capital to establish that business for the purpose of providing goods/services for profit. Where is the incentive in capitalism? "Because it's for the common good" is a pretty weak incentive.

Look at Venezuela right now. They have some of the largest reserves of Oil in the world, abundant natural resources, and the people are marching in the streets to throw their communist government out.

People vote with their feet. Why are more people not going to live in North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, etc? Why historically did people run en-masse AWAY from communism If it's so great?

For anyone still convinced that capitalist tendencies are biologically innate, or that people are only motivated by monetary incentives:

Grotesque inequality is not a natural part of being human
Quote
An attack on capitalism is “an attack on human nature” itself, according to an essay by the American humanities professor Mark Hunter. All of which is the perfect justification of the status quo: we cannot live under any other system because of our own biological hardwiring.

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/apr/25/inequality-project-guardian-in-depth-look-unequal-world-equality

So perhaps it is surprising to turn to the City for the evidence against this. Our financial sector, which plunged a large swath of humanity into economic turmoil, is perhaps the epitome of all the negative traits associated with modern capitalism. But a study published in Nature suggests it is the financial system that promotes dishonest behaviour: in other words, the individuals involved are not innately dishonest. The culture they work in is to blame, driving people to behave in a certain way. In the Square Mile’s daily newspaper, City AM, this research is presented as undermining the arguments promoted by “banker bashers” that the City attracts such people. Quite the reverse: it shows that if an environment successfully promotes selfishness, then it can equally nurture very different sorts of behaviour, too.

The Compassionate Instinct

Study on human altruism

Are bankers dishonest?

How Capitalism changes conscience

Motivation is Driven by Purpose - and not Monetary Incentives

How Culture and Experience Shape our Lives

Don't let clueless dolts like Ayn Rand dictate your philosophy.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 01:48:23 PM by Karl Marx »