Author Topic: the future of mafia madness or why mafia madness sucks  (Read 2140 times)

   on mafia madness servers i am somewhat of a maverick. i routinely test new bullstuff strategies on an unwary and aggravated playerbase who generally reject my messages until i shoot them enough times. my most recent success is claim or die and the widespread learning of the /claim command. however, there are limits in metagame development that i alone cannot overcome, ideas so radical that any attempt to implement them will leave me banned or devoid of votes by unwitting fools who cannot see my grand vision. the following transcription is the full evolution of the mafia madness metagame if we assume the culture around the game will change significantly to favor the highest level of play possible and why the culture has not and likely will not change.

   first the ruleset i am operating in must be understood, as changes in this ruleset may invalidate this entire brown townysis. one cannot just read the mafia madness rules and take them literally; they are now more precedent based than literal interpretation due to the metagame changing and the failure of any coders of note to update them. the most notable change is any majority vote by alive players allows whatever the players voted on to happen, regardless of rules, unless there is potential evidence of a ventriloquist loving about. the most frequent conflict hosts have with this rule is that it may lead to flimsy and random gunvotes and such, but from what i've seen most successful mm servers employ this and it is widely approved by players. this is, as of now, the only rule contesting the proposed meta with any significant following.

   knowledge of fundamental game mechanics is necessary, but mafia madness theory hasn't established itself well, so a primer lesson is in order. the goals of the town are to achieve information on who the antagonists are and kill them, while the goal of the antagonists are preventing the town from knowing who they are and killing the town. the game thus is about how quickly the town can discover the antagonists before too many town-aligned roles die. as such, the town is usually on the defensive, waiting until an antagonist strikes or they gather enough information through role claiming or investigations before killing anyone. a town informed of who the antagonists are will, on average, steamroll them with its advantage in players. since the town is continuously becoming more informed over time, noncult* antagonists are forced to act before the town finds and kills all of them. something important to note is because the goal of both sides is simply to kill all opposing sides, the amount of players left alive on each is irrelevant so long as the other is fully dead.

*the cult grows in strength over time assuming it recruits every night, eventually overpowering the town, but that is irrelevant to my proposal. consider any situation in which time passes as one where the cult wins.

   playing defensively and relying on investigative roles or antag actions keeps the game at a glacial pace due to the slow, nightly nature of investigation. during this time, antagonists essentially act with impunity as they are not actively threatened by anything except promises of a future investigation or a gunvote, in which case the antag still can fire the first bullet if an engagement is imminent and potentially escape. antagonists also benefit far more from nighttime abilities and nighttime visibility, the cult most of all, so simply waiting invites the antagonists to use these advantage to disorganize and kill the town. night, although offering benefits to the town through investigation, is more valuable to antagonists than the town. thus the town's goal is immediately setting out to find and execute the antagonists before they are allowed to act in order to either kill them or force their reveal as quickly as possible, preferably before the first night.

   so the town gains from rapidly gathering role information and using it to put pressure on the antagonists, thus what needs to be known are the ways to acquire this knowledge. the failure of investigative roles introduced claim or die, forcing the mafia to put themselves in a more vulnerable position as uncontested town roles become cleared. however, claim or die, once completed, has little followup. the town knows who the antagonists potentially are, but frequently waits until nightfall to begin the investigative process, allowing the antagonists to disrupt the town far more efficiently. what should instead occur is the killing of players claiming contested roles until the role is no longer contested.

   seasoned players might wrongly contextualize these votekills in the current metagame and culture, wherein votekilled people flee for their lives or shoot back at their fellows regardless of alignment. for this advanced votekilling to work, each member of the town has to think of themselves as part of a collective instead of as individuals; the practical difference between the two being individuals will fight to keep themselves alive while collectives will expend players, including themselves, to win the game. members of contested roles need to willingly accept their deaths and participate in the shooting of their role-fellows until there are no longer counterclaims.

   antag strategies to counter my proposal while still retaining elements of rooftop manipulation are inefficient and easily countered themselves, and the only real way for the mafia to succeed is successful Flash Mobs during the initial spawn phase when everyone is climbing to the roof, or retreating into a fortified area and preparing to deathmatch it out. all roles that act during the night are invalidated, removing a hefty advantage antagonists held beforehand. the roofside massacre removes any protection the mafia once held in counterclaiming, forcing them below the roof. however, once below the roof, the town is able to simply vote in a kos on anyone below the roof and count whoever is missing in the event that there are no visible counterclaims. towns can theoretically look at the player list to discover any missing persons once the initial clearing through claim or die/votekilling is successful. possible counters via obscuring claims with crazies/ventriloquists are solved easily by everyone immediately claiming their role after spawning, allowing the town to rely on the claimed role for vent cases and crazy knifing.

   resistance to my suggestions of turning the town into a well-oiled killing machine is significant and caused by the players falsely believing mafia madness is a game about individuals instead of a collective. this is due to the nature of the game; every player is able to win, and the only alignment certain is a player's own. additionally, dying is in itself a chore as the player must wait for the round to end with nothing to do but observe. this causes individuals to view dying as always negative and actively avoid it and is why this strategy will not be implemented in the near future.

   so if i ever votekill you and you didn't do anything thats why
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 01:19:16 AM by DestroyerOfBlocks »



yeah MM metagame is totally forgeted and i don't think there's any way to fix it. the way i administrate, 'claim or die' is 100% illegal. it'd fall under a purposeful attempt to cause your team to lose because you are aggressively accusing and killing off people without any reasonable grounds for suspicion. gunvote was an unfortunate discovery that was originally made to counter vent, but now people do it because it makes escape effectively impossible. nothing illegal about it, it's just effectively a ridiculous nerf to evil roles. either way, these are things that people accept. the concept that the town makes the rules and not the admins also contributed to this, but if admins (including myself) were more stringent about what was and was not okay to vote on, that'd probably be quashed

the problem is that there's not a feasible way to reconstruct this meta without pissing people off because they're used to just going in and slaughtering and having the round be over with. it works really well as a strategy, it's just not fun any more because people have gotten so efficient at winning as town that there's no reason to expect any other outcome. i think it was a natural end result of a game with such open-ended rules though, and i think of it as a really interesting learning experience about how the meta of multiplayer games can evolve over time.

and it's kinda amazing how all of that happened because of you. defo not upset or anything, i'm glad things turned out this way, even if it means the game sucks now. i doubt i'll host MM again cus i'll probably make administrative judgements based on an older meta and end up souring the mood
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 05:10:26 PM by otto-san »


claim or die is dumb. ur dumb

Edit: I'll put a meaningful say into this when I get home
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 10:27:08 AM by ButlerBlockhead125 »

claim or die is dumb. ur dumb

Edit: I'll put a meaningful say into this when I get home
claim or die is only garbage when there are >3 special roles. otherwise it's a great way to not have a round last ten minutes, and causes some hilarious pandemonium

one thing i offered to solve the claim or die dilemma was to randomize the order of the role list (the one you see at the bottom) and replace some of those letters with question marks instead of the role initial. this would leave room for uncertainty about the claims, meaning that if two people were claiming the same rolespace (lets say both are claiming F) and there's an F and a ? in the rolelist, the only way to find out if one of them is lying is to get the roles of everyone else and work back through process of elimination.

this method would make counterclaiming impossible to secure guilt because for all you know, they could both be telling the truth. the ? would either disappear as the game progresses, or naturally as people gain more information, etc. either way it would definitely extend the 'investigative' part of the game longer than day 1, and would encourage people really looking for bodies downstairs in order to narrow down the role spaces. it would also encourage power roles like FE and O to utilize their powers to greater extent, while also making them higher priority targets for the mafia.



the problem after the above is done is that mafia will still have the advantage of the 'massacre' or the ability to ambush between 1-3 player downstairs and hide their bodies, or use mafia chat to plan a Flash Mob on roof (spy would counter this).

my only solution would be to add a limited ammo system. i absolutely hate the idea of limited ammo, i know everyone else does, but it's one of the only ways you can stop the sheer amount of killing. in a game like town of salem, each killing role can only strike one person, and of course who they strike is important as some people might be invincible or useless roles. in MM there isn't really much of that beyond deciding who the first target will be in your long list of massacre victims. from there it's just a bunch of shooting, chaos, and retreating under the map to gain the advantage.

limited ammo would (ideally) force mafia and town to think out their shots more deeply, rather than go in guns blazing and waste all 6 bullets immediately. it means mafia would have to strike true on their shots because there's less room for error, and town would have to think out their compulsive gunvoting since there is a risk they might waste bullets on someone who isn't even worth killing. it also gives cult a serious advantage, since recruiting players will not only add more firepower but will add more bullets and give them an edge over the rest of the game. the major flaw in this would be that running out of bullets essentially ruins the game for you, so i'd propose -some- sort of refill event, maybe the next morning people get two bullets, or in basement there's a cache of bullets that gives you a few.

it's definitely a radical change to the gameplay that many people would dislike in their signature MM culture 'this doesn't meet my MM standards' bullstuff but it seems necessary. it would really bring MM closer to the investigative and careful planning features that games like town of salem are known for, but it would obviously sacrifice the signature gunplay element that MM was built upon



all in all some things to consider. ideally, the new meta after all this will be to wait 1-2 days to gain crucial information, such as dead body roles, fingerprints, and confirmed roles (cop would probably need to be buffed to be able to get the exact role of people they investigate). for mafia, they would still try to pick off 1-2 people below roof, but that move would be high risk high reward, as not only can they now have a fresh corpse to impersonate the role of, but they are short a few bullets.  if they do try to massacre the roof, the mafia as a team might have the combined count of around 10 bullets to utilize on roof, while the town will have four times that. obviously mafia will be outmatched, but as long as they use their power roles and the guerrilla tactics they can easily win. they just have to pick their shots more carefully.

all this combined should, in theory, extend the game an extra day or two. to counter the long ass wait times i'd make a more dangerous sudden death event than just 'the dead will rise'
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 01:26:47 PM by PhantOS »

I would 100% agree with changing the rules to have the roles not be 100% known, or just not have all of the roles visible in the first place to anyone but maybe mafia.

On the second part, you CANNOT limit the amount of ammo in MM, it wasn't how the game was meant to be played. The only way ToS was able to do this system because their game isn't based on skill at all, it is pure strategy of brown townyzing the current roles, knowing how to communicate, and how to comprehend other's text in a way to figure out who the mafia/SK are, and how to get the rest of the town to agree with you. In MM, it's much different, because it only takes one person to lynch someone, and they can do it at any point in the game, but it's slightly harder to figure out someone else role by yourself, and of course, you can miss with your bullets. On average of playing MM, I wouldn't call myself a horrible shot, yet I expend roughly 3-5 bullets to kill someone in a designated DM when I'm shooting at someone, and he is shooting back.

Now, the way I've viewed MM, it was a very fun game when Brackets([]----[]) had hosted it with his admin crew, especially when he started adding in more roles, and making the guns slightly more balanced (Shooting delay, requiring reload times). And about just after he released the last role (I believe it was Naive was the last role he had released, or maybe it was Devil, not 100% sure) the game was extremely fun to play. Not many people knew the complete meta there is today, and didn't view the game as a "100% innocents try hard, we must win with every meta advantage we have" and thought of themselves as their own thing chilling on a roof, having no clue what's happening as their fellow innocents are picked off one by one. But then after Brackets stopped frequently hosting, Otto took over and added a few things, such as balancing how roles are given out, and how many people are required for a certain role, and even a couple new roles to innocents and mafia. This conveniently happened to be the time when Blockland started it's decline in it's player base. Because of Bracket's harsh administrating rules, most of the people who didn't contribute any fun to the game, and often ruined it were most likely perma-banned within the day. But Otto's server not only had looser rules and administration, but was also filled generally worse players that only play Blockland to troll and the such. Then Otto started adding in many more new stuff, such as completely new game modes with new antagonists, such as infection and cult, and then added in an automatic voting system, which lead to MM+ being seen as more of a silly game mode to forget around with, and often most game modes being picked were silly ones, such as the Sock Cult or craziness. Because of this the only people that stuck around were people who were there for the silliness of the game mode, or people such as You(OP) that only wanted to figure out the meta for both sides and win as much as possible, which just made MM much, much, MUCH, less fun than when it was originally created by Brackets.

Disclaimer: I'm not being directly aggressive towards Otto here for causing the decline of MM/MM+, I'm just saying he started hosting at a bad time(which was basically any time since 2014-ish). Otto did have some great ideas on new things to add to MM, and was no doubt a great coder of uhh, whatever code he coded in.

when i remade MM i originally didn't intend to add much new, but i just made it easy enough that it was hard to avoid. i was one of the main admins in brackets's server and i was pretty harsh back then, but i guess developing MM at the same time as hosting it as well as having mellowed out a bit probably softened me up with MMToo

it's actually totally possible to create a more "vanilla" environment in MMToo, and i made sure that that was always an option, because i didn't want the original gameplay to be lost. i never played around with the numbers for the original modes either, it was all, as far as i know, a 1:1 copy. i think the meta is really the main thing at play here tho, even if my additions ended up being adopted as some kinda mm 'canon,' because You's discoveries were a totally natural end result of the decisions that were made when designing and administrating mafia madness. at some point during hosting MMToo i decided to let it fly that the town should be able to create round-specific rules on the fly by vote because it seemed wholly reasonable, but i was never very hard on You testing the boundaries of things like this with 'claim or die' and other similar things. i added in the ~hugely successful~ reputation extension because i thought it'd stigmatize and discourage behaviors that resulted in lots of inno deaths, but that fell flat. i didn't want to make major gameplay changes because i wanted to expand on the original gamemode with additions, not alter its design to accommodate for an evolving meta, and ultimately, that let the players run away with the gamemode and get it down to a science.

paradoxically, my desire to remain faithful to the original design of MM allowed MM to be destroyed by players changing the gamemode on their own. even if brackets was the one hosting the original gamemode, the exact same strategies that You discovered would work and they would be just as effective, and that's what's kinda amazing about all this. truth is, You probably understands the gameplay of MM better than i do, and because of that, he was able to think conceptually about the game's design and craft a strategy within the legality of the adopted administration meta that reliably results in a victory nearly every time. i think the addition of the cult in particular may have definitely accelerated this conclusion, but given a vanilla MM environment, i suspect You probably would have figured all this out anyway, because i never changed any of the basic design constructs. the gamemode is always towns vs an unknown evil. the alignment of the last person standing wins. the best way for the town to exterminate that evil is for a known innocent to systematically eliminate any and all potential threats while keeping all known innocent roles alive. even if you kill innocents this way, as long as the people remaining are innocent, you win. as an evil role, it's even more straightforward. just be a good shot and a decent strategist and exterminate people as quickly and efficiently as possible. these basic tenets hold true in any form of MM and in any game that follows the same design. the only way to stop it is to make this behavior illegal. which is the downfall of many of these games, they rely on honor or forced compliance to keep the players in line. i remember one time, badspot and rotondo joined MM. rotondo RDM'd someone and badspot got RDM'd, and then they left after badspot complained that computer games should be able to administrate themselves. for a game like MM, of course, it's a ridiculous request, but in retrospect, he wasn't entirely wrong, because the failure of MM administrators/developers to keep the meta in line caused MM to ultimately destroy itself as the players took advantage of their growing power to dissolve the game down to a specific strategy. it happens in every competitive game, and it happened here too, and i think that there's a really interesting lesson to learn there

i really am just that good

   in other news i wouldn't say mafia madness is "destroyed", although it did veer as far away as it conceivably could from original intentions. the newer mafia madness is perfectly playable as some sort of brisk bureaucracy simulator where the challenge is rapidly cajoling each other into claim or die and votekills while the antagonists immediately disrupt this through violence or attempting to abuse the systems in place (such as killing people who don't claim fast enough or hiding bodies). some of the old problems, such as the innocents having nothing to do but stand around on the roof and make guesses on who should be investigated until the mafia shoot things, or the longer waits for the dead that arise from longer games, or the antags just never doing anything, are alleviated precisely because the game is operates at a faster pace.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 06:49:23 PM by DestroyerOfBlocks »

yeah the innos having nothing to do has always been a prob that i never really figured out how to fix other than just making more innocents have special roles. i think the best solution would be to create a worthy successor rather than trying to fix up what's there. you can probably manage plenty with the framework laid down in MMToo i guess, but i wouldn't personally want to be burdened by the association with MM.

implementing some of phantos ideas could work (limited ammo was played around with a bit during development so we've already kinda decided it wasn't a good idea, but in a diff game it might work better). the obfuscated role list would defo nerf 'claim or die' strategies. i think it would also be important to focus on making every player serve an important role. if the majority of the town serves an important purpose, it's much riskier to just kill people off, and at the same time, people feel more engaged with the game because they aren't just a useless regular ol inno. evils benefit too because they have more roles to strategize around. maybe implementing town of salem style wills or role logs would also be nice, was something i always wanted to play around with cus it'd let important inno roles operate in secrecy and still have utility and vengeance past the grave. i never considered the pace of the game a problem, but the day/night cycle could also be sped up. maybe it'd keep people engaged better since there wouldn't be so much down time.

thinking about ways to alter the game's design around the new meta would be the best way to move forward if people plan to do so. i think it's pretty necessary that slaughter tactics are eliminated from the meta in whatever new evolution occurs, and i think most of that will ultimately be in administration, but it's defo possible to make design choices that hinder that kind of strategy too

hear that You? some of my ideas could work.