Off Topic > Off Topic
Catalonia's independence movement died before it started
TristanLuigi:
--- Quote from: beachbum111111 on October 28, 2017, 11:59:30 PM ---Does CIA have the right to be an independent sovereign nation?
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--- Quote from: TristanLuigi on October 28, 2017, 11:55:52 PM ---[...]have a right to secede so long as they have the support of the people (and aren't doing for the purpose of human rights abuses, such as the Confederacy.)
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I think you'll agree that ISIL neither has the popular support of the people they govern, nor are they fighting for democracy, human rights, or self-determination.
beachbum111111:
--- Quote from: TristanLuigi on October 29, 2017, 12:01:11 AM ---I think you'll agree that ISIL neither has the popular support of the people they govern, nor are they fighting for democracy, human rights, or self-determination.
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I'm sure if the Islamic State held a poll they would get majority support. And it would be just as legit as the Catalonia referendum and the Crimea referedum.
Kearn:
--- Quote from: TristanLuigi on October 28, 2017, 11:55:52 PM ---US states have a right to secede
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White
--- Quote from: TristanLuigi on October 28, 2017, 11:55:52 PM ---Yet, a majority of Catalan voters in the referendum voted to secede.
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~40% turnout in a referendum with no serious controls on integrity boycotted by the opposition and blatantly against all public opinion polling recorded in violation of a constitution voted for with 67% turnout and 95% in favor less than half a century ago
--- Quote from: TristanLuigi on October 28, 2017, 11:55:52 PM ---I would say democracy is a human right, no?
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literally everything is a human right to you
you have no concept of privileges or abilities being earned or maintained. you expect everything you like to be given to people as a "right" and everything contrary to what you want is a humanitarian crCIA
--- Quote from: beachbum111111 on October 29, 2017, 12:03:15 AM ---I'm sure if the Islamic State held a poll they would get majority support. And it would be just as legit as the Catalonia referendum and the Crimea referedum.
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we have a winner
beachbum111111:
what do i win?
TristanLuigi:
--- Quote from: Kearn on October 29, 2017, 12:06:06 AM ---https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White
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The law is not always right.
--- Quote from: Kearn on October 29, 2017, 12:06:06 AM ---~40% turnout in a referendum with no serious controls on integrity boycotted by the opposition and blatantly against all public opinion polling recorded
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Consider that the 2014 US elections only had 36% turnout, lower than the Catalan referendum. Yet we still consider it valid. I will concede that the referendum was not done in the best of conditions, but you can't blame Catalonia for that, only Spain. Furthermore, the public opinion may very well have shifted since the opinion polls were done. If the opposition wanted the vote to reflect them, perhaps they should have showed up to vote. I will gladly change my mind if Spain allows Catalonia to conduct a free and fair referendum, and the majority of people vote "no."
--- Quote from: Kearn on October 29, 2017, 12:06:06 AM ---in violation of a constitution voted for with 67% turnout and 95% in favor less than half a century ago
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40 years is plenty of time for people to die, people to be born, and people to change their minds. We are not slaves of the past.
--- Quote from: Kearn on October 29, 2017, 12:06:06 AM ---literally everything is a human right to you
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Democracy certainly is. Free association and self-determination certainly are.
--- Quote from: Kearn on October 29, 2017, 12:06:06 AM ---you have no concept of privileges or abilities being earned or maintained. you expect everything you like to be given to people as a "right" and everything contrary to what you want is a humanitarian crCIA
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Please. I'm not calling our immigration policy, healthcare system, or military spending a "humanitarian crCIA" just because I disagree with our current policies. Give it a rest. (And by definition, rights do not have to be "earned" - they simply are.)