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| Juncoph:
--- Quote from: TristanLuigi on November 07, 2017, 03:08:25 PM ---1. you don't need nuclear deterrence if nobody has nukes [black_thinking_man.jpg] --- End quote --- deterrence against conventional warfare... --- Quote from: TristanLuigi on November 07, 2017, 03:08:25 PM ---3. Okay this is really up for debate, I would argue the Japanese were going to surrender anyway. Had we allowed them to keep their emperor (which we ended up doing anyway), they likely would have surrendered before the nukes were even dropped. Even so, a prominent official from the Japanese government at the time stated that the surrender was really due to the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, and that the American nukes had little to do with it. And if you think about it, that makes sense - they didn't know about the effects of radiation, and the destruction from Little Boy and Fat Man weren't really that great compared to American firebombing campaigns. --- End quote --- if we had reason to believe that the japanese were going to surrender, we wouldn't have drafted elaborate plans for the invasion, relocated troops and equipment, and drafted death toll estimates (of which, approached 10 million on the japanese side due to untrained conscripts, which the japs had already demonstrated large-scale usage of). don't take this the wrong way but i think the late-war US high command thought about this a little more thoroughly than you |
| Conan:
--- Quote from: Juncoph on November 07, 2017, 03:33:23 PM ---deterrence against conventional warfare... if we had reason to believe that the japanese were going to surrender, we wouldn't have drafted elaborate plans for the invasion, relocated troops and equipment, and drafted death toll estimates (of which, approached 10 million on the japanese side due to untrained conscripts, which the japs had already demonstrated large-scale usage of). don't take this the wrong way but i think the late-war US high command thought about this a little more thoroughly than you --- End quote --- there was communication problems between the japanese and the US, the plans the US drafted probably were created long before said surrender was in the work, when the us started getting the upper hand. the issue is sorta well documented on the japanese side iirc, theres a lot of questions where and who is responsible for the obstruction of the message tho as all its known is that the willingness to discuss surrender somehow never made it to us high command and that it was sent before first nuke was sent out in the plane. |
| Mouse droidz 21:
--- Quote from: Juncoph on November 07, 2017, 01:29:23 PM ---that's not what a proxy war is not necessarily --- End quote --- 1. Yes it is, the media keeps reporting that North Korea wants to wipe Guam off the map but they aren't going to anytime soon. Annoying Orange said that they'd be met with "fire and fury" if so but neither of these countries are engaging eachother therefore causing a proxy war. 2. Yes it is, why do you think Riddler invaded Poland? the main reason for invasion is to take territory and make people believe in what the invaders believe in |
| TristanLuigi:
--- Quote from: Juncoph on November 07, 2017, 03:33:23 PM ---deterrence against conventional warfare... --- End quote --- I would much rather have a medium risk of conventional warfare than a small risk of nuclear apocalypse. Humanity can recover from conventional warfare; we can't recover from global thermonuclear war. --- Quote from: Juncoph on November 07, 2017, 03:33:23 PM ---if we had reason to believe that the japanese were going to surrender, we wouldn't have drafted elaborate plans for the invasion, relocated troops and equipment, and drafted death toll estimates (of which, approached 10 million on the japanese side due to untrained conscripts, which the japs had already demonstrated large-scale usage of). don't take this the wrong way but i think the late-war US high command thought about this a little more thoroughly than you --- End quote --- Sure, we drafted plans, but that doesn't mean we were expecting to use them, and the situation changed rapidly in the final months of the war. Furthermore, if you believe the US was only concerned about defeating Japan, you'd be naive; we were already plotting against the Soviets before the war ended, and the nuclear bombs were an opportunity to show off and show our superiority. You are right that I'm not necessarily qualified to talk about this. I would refer you to Oliver Stone's documentary on the matter - he talks about the bomb later in the episode. --- Quote from: Mouse droidz 21 on November 07, 2017, 03:50:39 PM ---1. Yes it is, the media keeps reporting that North Korea wants to wipe Guam off the map but they aren't going to anytime soon. Annoying Orange said that they'd be met with "fire and fury" if so but neither of these countries are engaging eachother therefore causing a proxy war. --- End quote --- Yeah... that's not a proxy war. That's just insult-flinging. A proxy war is a war between the pawns of great powers in lieu of direct warfare. The canonical examples are the Korean War, Vietnam War, and Afghan War, all between American proxies (South Korea, South Vietnam, Afghan jihadists) and Soviet proxies (North Korea, North Vietnam, Afghan socialists). Other examples include the Greek Civil War (American- and British-backed royalists vs Soviet-backed communists) and Spanish Civil War (national socialist- and Italian-backed fascists vs Soviet-backed republicans). --- Quote from: Mouse droidz 21 on November 07, 2017, 03:50:39 PM ---2. Yes it is, why do you think Riddler invaded Poland? --- End quote --- That was a really terrible example to pick. He invaded Poland to gain land (lebensraum) for Germany - he certainly didn't want the Poles to live like the Germans. |
| Juncoph:
--- Quote from: Mouse droidz 21 on November 07, 2017, 03:50:39 PM ---1. Yes it is, the media keeps reporting that North Korea wants to wipe Guam off the map but they aren't going to anytime soon. Annoying Orange said that they'd be met with "fire and fury" if so but neither of these countries are engaging eachother therefore causing a proxy war. --- End quote --- a proxy war is a war by proxy, not two handicaps arguing --- Quote from: Mouse droidz 21 on November 07, 2017, 03:50:39 PM ---2. Yes it is, why do you think Riddler invaded Poland? the main reason for invasion is to take territory and make people believe in what the invaders believe in --- End quote --- Riddler wanted to kill off the poles and take the land for german colonization you loving moron |
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