IDF VS HAMAS

[PhantOS]

Religion has its strengths and weaknesses but I doubt it is the sole/primary cause of this conflict. At a more fundamental level, all organisms have a deeply evolved purpose to further the reproduction of their own genetic relatives while eliminating competing organisms of a different genetic lineage. Palestine and Israel have conflicting religious and judicial goals. However, their goals are shaped by and reflect this emergent strategy to preserve ones' own family and community above all others.

If you took Judaism and Islam out of the picture, the conflict between the two sides would persist; The people in that region occupy one of the most densely populated resource-strained locations on the planet. Regardless of their intentions and desire for peace, living space will always be limited, and at some point one side (or both) will organize to further their own survival at the expense of the other.

Peace will only be found in anti-natalism and reproductive education. Less people means more resources and happier individuals. Any attempt to diffuse the war or come to a compromise will only continue the overpopulation of Israel and Palestine, and lead to an inevitable conflict in the future. Unless population control is implemented, the 'winner' of this conflict will have multiple civil wars, rebellions and internal conflicts in their future. For example, if Israel conquers Gaza and annexes their land, suddenly the various sects of Judaism within Israel's government will be at conflict with each other over who deserves to control the land. War will persist in one way or another, as long as people continue to reproduce without limit.

[Ad Bot]

[ultimamax]

I don't know why you guys are willing to make such strong claims well not seeming to knowing your history very well. Anti-Semites have been killing Jews for hundreds of years. Seems weird it's only a problem once the Jewish can stand up for themselves after building a home by... buying land and defending it.

i know the history well. they only bought land at first but in 1947 the UN granted them 56% of the land between the river and the sea despite them being only 1/3 of the population there. this was done with almost no consideration towards the desire or land claims of the palestinian population. the arabs that the UNSCOP surveyed didn't want there to be a partition at all but they did it anyway.
this sparked the israeli "war of independence", in which 700k palestinians (80% of the population) were violently expelled from their homes forever. this is not disputed by mainstream israeli historians (source)

Not claiming all the land was bought but as far as I know most land acquisition by Israel has been after they've been attacked and they retaliate.

in 1947 the UN just gives them 56% of the land when they only legally owned 7% of it at that point. after the 1949 armistice they have even more land than the UN would have given them. naked theft
in 1967 they attacked syria, iraq, egypt, jordan, and lebanon, to steal the west bank, the golan heights, gaza, and the sinai desert which they gave back in 78. they claim this was a "pre-emptive strike" because egypt was warned of the attack and amassed troops in the sinai beforehand.

There's absolutely plenty of Anti-Semitic conflicts targeting Jews prior to 1948. E.g. Why aren't we talking about the Balfour Declaration of 1917? It feels like talking about 1880-1920 would be far more productive than starting in the middle of the conflict.

what is there to say about the balfour declaration? the british did not keep their promise that palestinian rights would be respected, they completely mismanaged mandatory palestine and both sides hated them. why should we be talking about that

...there are more than enough resources for everybody to live happily in the area between the river and the sea. israel produces 95% of its own food requirements

[Swholli]

I just think ethnostates created through genocide are bad even when the Jews try and make them

[SBG]

is OP the guy that used to have that one anime girl avatar that is breathing on the camera or something

[Defendor]

I understand why Jewish people want to defend the place where they feel safe being Jewish.

can they feel safe without my taxes, please?

[teeds427]

I support Palestine's cause. I think it's hard not to, especially if you keep in close touch with what goes on in the Knesset, the front lines, and the West Bank settlements. A couple of rabid MPs and a lot of Israeli soldiers are out there explicitly calling to glass Gaza and establishing a draconian occupation zone afterwards.

Settlers sponsored by the Israeli government steal Palestinian property out in the West Bank and move into houses previously owned by the Arab locals. It's disappointing to see my government continuing to send billions of dollars to Israel as they inflict total destruction on many innocent lives

[ultimamax]

an underrated aspect of this is that netanyahu and his cabinet will probably be brought up on corruption charges once this conflict ends, so he has every incentive to extend and expand this conflict. if he expels the palestinians in rafah into the sinai, especially during ramadan, itll expand the conflict to include lebanon, yemen, possibly syria, possibly iran, which will force the US to get more involved. we are basically in a murder Self Delete pact with a highly unstable ethnostate. oh and israel has secret nukes that aren't subject to UN inspection requirements so that's fun.

it's really hard to understand the political calculus biden is doing, i think at this point he probably thinks "even if we stop this now, the pro-palestine part of my base is not gonna vote for me anyway". and that is probably correct. that's a very craven evil way to think about ending a genocide though.

[Khaz]

imagine simping for a jewish national socialist apartheid state

[Rigel]

i know the history well. they only bought land at first but in 1947 the UN granted them 56% of the land between the river and the sea despite them being only 1/3 of the population there. this was done with almost no consideration towards the desire or land claims of the palestinian population. the arabs that the UNSCOP surveyed didn't want there to be a partition at all but they did it anyway.
this sparked the israeli "war of independence", in which 700k palestinians (80% of the population) were violently expelled from their homes forever. this is not disputed by mainstream israeli historians (source)

Palestinians have every reason to fight against this bullstuff, but I don't think they'll shy away from avenging the decades of bloodshed if they get the upper hand. What do you think a peaceful solution could look like?

[ultimamax]

Palestinians have every reason to fight against this bullstuff, but I don't think they'll shy away from avenging the decades of bloodshed if they get the upper hand. What do you think a peaceful solution could look like?

they didnt do "decades of bloodshed" against the white afrikaners in south africa after apartheid. but many of them left voluntarily.

im not sure if you mean a peaceful solution to the war in gaza, or a solution to palestinian statehood. in either case, the US has massive leverage, we could threaten to pull military and political support and bring them to heel very quickly. they're very dependent on american military and political support.

ideally there should be a single secular state there with equal rights there for everybody i think. if we somehow got to that point i think a lot of zionists would leave the country

[Rigel]

ideally there should be a single secular state there with equal rights there for everybody i think. if we somehow got to that point i think a lot of zionists would leave the country

That would be ideal, but it's a distant dream when the nations with land claims all have theocratic governments. Man, it sure would be funny to see Biden pull the rug out from under Israel and revoke all support.

[Ladios]

As for medical and press, you're gonna have to source that.

I was planning to first address the issues of journalists and the medical personell being deliberately targeted by the IOF.
The first is a list of at least 95 journalists killed, the second is a statement by doctors without borders of some of their medical personel being killed.

And I realize two links confirming deliberate killing of over a hundred non-combatants will probably not sway you if South Africa, Ireland, and many other country's governments decrying these war crimes didn't.

However, there is one topic that I feel is important to address today as several aid organizations are bringing to light.
Regarding the continued displacement of Gazans in particular.

Since Oct 7th? Or are you talking about all of history? If it's since Hamas hopped the border with the sole mission of killing as many civilians as they could I'd assume you'd would be able to understand this is a developing situation.

Well you have previously stated that the historical claims of Israel over indigenous Palestinian territories are not relevant to the current discussion, as they were done "legally" through "land purchases".
We [ edit ] could [ /edit ] perhaps discuss all of the recent conflicts wherin the IOF assisted in the demolition of homes in the Golan Heights and other territories that were supposed to be left aside for Palestinians, not as a response to offensive activities by the Palestinians, but at the behest of land developers who needed more room for expanding settlements. [ edit ] but that is another conversation which I do not have the energy for right now. [ /edit ]

We will ignore the historiocity of everything and focus on the recent military expansion of the IOF since october 7th in particular.

When Israel decided it was going to start bombing northern Gaza, it gave the citizens, 1.5 million of them, a six hour warning to evacuate the area.
[ edit ] I am including a link here because this is such a rediculous demand by Israel I am sure you wont believe me on my word, so here was there demand as stated by CNN [ /edit ]
 That is like trying to empty the entire population of Philadelphia, (except in much denser poulation per area) In a quarter of a day. International pressure, not Israeli hospitality, ensured there would be a corridor for citizens to leave the area.

Even despite the extended permitted time to leave the area, the actual path for evacuees to walk were considered combat zones except for temporary four hour ceasefires (that only applied to the actual evacuations sites, not even the areas between Gaza City and supposed safe areas of Salah Al-Din) Oh and that "humanitarian corridor" that the UN demanded be in place? Yeah, the IOF was still arresting fleeing civillians

So ok, those Gazans? Not trusted to live in North Gaza. Sure, they still have all of South Gaza that is kept free. Oh wait nevermind
Israel continues to shrink the "safe zone" like the most perverse game of fortnite you've ever seen. More and more Refugee camps were added to lists of places that Gazans had to evacuate. And here is a link to Reuters if you are getting tired of me linking Aljazeera= https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-attacking-south-gaza-after-telling-people-go-there-2023-10-25/#:~:text=Since%20telling%20Gazans%20to%20head,south%20intensified%20on%20Oct.%2025.

This has lead to the only remaining safe zone for most Gazans being the tiny stretch of land in Rafah, on the egyptian border. That a population of refugees larger than the US's sixth largest city, in a 24.71 square mile space. That is Half The Size of Disneyworld.

Why don't the refugees all just cross over into Egypt? Even ignoring the demands of processing all of the new civillians, that is essentially adding the entire population of a major city that now egypt would have to take care of that there is currently no infrasturcture for.

So,
That brings me to why I am focusing so much on the issue of displacement. Tonight is the first night of Ramadan. It is also the night of the Oscars. Previous moves by the Israeli Offensive Force have coincided with major relgious events such as Christmas, and cultural events that attract the US's attention such as the Superbowl. There are more than a few people who are concerned that today will mark another attempt to reduce the territory allowed to be occupied by Gazans. Maybe nothing of note will happen today, which I pray is the case. However, hopefully you can understand my concern.

Since the start of the Israeli invasion into Gaza, in theory for the sole purpose of finding Hamas fighters, the safe areas for Gazans has decreased to 1/6th of its former area. You say you are open to changing your opinion. Do any of these facts raise even the slightest bit of concern over the lives of the civilians in Gaza for you?


[EDIT 2]
WAIT WAIT WAIT hold up:
I got around to reading what you wrote in reponse to the white phosphorus thing

Principle of proportionality comes into effect here. Pretty sure this isn't true.

And What?
Principle of proportionality my ass, It's a loving warcrime under the geneva convention.
Did you even read the loving link i left last time? Here's another:
https://disarmament.unoda.org/convarms/incendiary-weapons/
and in case you dont want to click it:

The use of incendiary weapons is heavily interlinked with concerns over the respect of international humanitarian law, particularly the prohibition of weapons that cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering and regulations to protect civilians from the effects of hostilities.

In 1980, the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May Be Deemed to Be Excessively Injurious or to Have Indiscriminate Effects was adopted with the aim to ban or restrict the use of certain types of weapons considered to cause unnecessary or unjustifiable suffering to combatants or to indiscriminately affects civilians. Protocol III of the Convention restricts the use of incendiary weapons.

The Protocol on prohibitions or restrictions on the use of incendiary weapons (Protocol III) aims at protecting civilians and civilian objects from the use of this type of weapons. It prohibits targeting civilians and restricts targeting military objects located within populated areas. The Protocol also prohibits the use of incendiary weapons on forest or other plants unless the vegetation is used to conceal military objects.”

The USA still maintains the right to use them under certain circumstances.

And the  US has  never comitted  a war crime?
(Those are four seperate links mind you. And we are not at all innocent in this most recent attack as the white phosphorus used by Israel was Made in the USA (TM) )

There appears to be a reduction in the usage of White Phosphorus by Israel.

There "appears to be a reduction"?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/human-rights-watch-says-israel-used-white-phosphorous-gaza-lebanon-2023-10-12/
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/amnesty-international-shares-proof-on-israels-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-gaza/3020340
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israel-admits-possession-of-munitions-containing-white-phosphorus/3080426
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-probes-israeli-strikes-that-killed-civilians-in-gaza-possible-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-lebanon-b8fb043b
https://scrippsnews.com/stories/investigations-find-israel-used-white-phosphorus-made-in-the-us/
https://www.anews.com.tr/middle-east/2023/10/15/anadolus-images-prove-israel-used-white-phosphorus-in-gaza

There are links for at least two instances of White Phosphorus use on civillians in Gaza and Lebanon each, and concerns over it's continued use.


[Edit 3: Bonus Round]

You understand that's 1 person out of a 120 member parliament right? Does a single member of congress dictate the absolute views of the USA?

Former Director of Israeli Security Agency states that "Netanyahu wants an endless war"
If a US president, say Andrew Jackson, decided we needed to foricibly exterminate or relocate all the indigenous peoples from the east coast, you would say that he is attempting genocide, correct?
If the Israeli government's position is to expunge all Palestinians from the territory, is that any different?

[Edit 4: Moved these from the below post for clarity]
So I have just learned that about 20 hours ago yesterday at the time of this edit, Israel bombed a 15 story residential structure in the supposed safe zone of Rafah "Oh but they gave warning." 30 minutes to evacuate a full 15 story structure where many of the inhabitants are starving or suffering wounds from previous Israeli attacks? It's a miracle more weren't killed or injured. Not to mention those are hundreds of more people without housing who will have to join the general mass refugee camp forming in Rafah.

Where the forget are these people supposed to go? They are literally in the last "safe zone" allowed by Israel and now they are being bombed there too.
Oh and now theres more women and children killed in an airstrike in northern Gaza

[Ladios]

So,
That brings me to why I am focusing so much on the issue of displacement. Tonight is the first night of Ramadan. It is also the night of the Oscars. Previous moves by the Israeli Offensive Force have coincided with major relgious events such as Christmas, and cultural events that attract the US's attention such as the Superbowl. There are more than a few people who are concerned that today will mark another attempt to reduce the territory allowed to be occupied by Gazans. Maybe nothing of note will happen today, which I pray is the case. However, hopefully you can understand my concern.

And there we go Just like I said, and like every observer predicted, Israel has begun assaults on what was supposed to be the last safe zone available to Gazans, Rafah, on the first night of Ramadan, the most sacred holiday of the Muslim community, and during the Oscars when most Americans are distracted by the pretty celebrities on tv.

This is literally the last place they can go before being run directly into the Mediterranean Sea.
How much does this

situation

have to

develop

before you notice that hey maybe this is more than a little forgeted up?

[edit]
Reguarding the bombardment of another evacuation zone, supposedly where Israel has promised people will be allowed to stay safe from bombs:
https://aje.io/tsk5ik?update=2764473

Of concern is Israel’s heavy bombardment of the al-Mawasi evacuation zone, where residents were previously ordered to relocate by the Israeli army. Among the dead are at least eight Palestinians who were sheltering in a tent.

This assault on what was deemed a safe area has shattered any remaining sense of security for Gaza’s traumatised population.

[edit 2]
More updates on tonight's attack against Rafah, a supposed "safe zone" for Palestinian refugees to avoid getting targeted by airstrikes. Guess that was a lie. https://aje.io/tsk5ik?update=2764569

[edit 3]
And more attacks on refugee camps tonight: https://aje.io/tsk5ik?update=2764726
And attacks on civillian neighborhoods in gaza city: https://aje.io/tsk5ik?update=2764673
Looks like the IOF is having a very busy night of "defending" israel...

[edit 4]
More women and children (ie, non-combatants) killed in Gaza tonight, https://aje.io/tsk5ik?update=2764871
And Muslims are being denied enterance to mosques on the night of the start of Ramadan https://aje.io/tsk5ik?update=2764776
Which is very strange considering what you said:

Around 18% of Israel is Muslim, weird genocide.

Which, correct me if I'm wrong, was meant to convey some sort of "they are actually not discriminating against Muslims inside of the occupied territories of Israel"? Maybe they didnt get the message.

[Swholli]

I just can't believe that I had to live through the entirety of the Iraq War- the lies, the xenophobia, the propaganda, the devaluing and detoothing of the word 'terrorist'- to then have to sit and listen to the knock-off lego forum's biggest contrarian idiot since Master Matthew defend an ethnostate because "tewwoism."

[Ladios]

Just like I said, and like every observer predicted, Israel has begun assaults

I don't really have the emotional fortitude to comment on all the "defending" that occurred last night but here are a few headlines:

Iraeli forces kill even more citizens in the "safe zone" of Rafah after having directed the citizens to evacuate to that area.
Israeli airstrike kills family of aid workers

And their treatment of prisoners violates the geneva convention time and again.
Israeli soldiers drag Palestinian captives through street by rope
These activities are not about fighting hamas. Dragging people through the streets by a rope is not conducive to routing out insurgents.

Understandably
Muslims in Israel fear being able to attend mosques for Ramadan due to violence by the IOF

And clearly not everyone in Israel supports these dreadful actions:
Israeli Civil Rights groups codemn lack of access to humanitarian aid

As members of Israel-based civil society committed to human rights and the rule of law, we condemn the fact that Israel has so far failed to change its behaviour based on the measures imposed by the ICJ, as well as the fact that humanitarian aid to Gaza dropped by 50% in the month following the ruling

while
Children are starving to death due to Israel blocking food aid

Oh and a really nifty one. You know when all those aid workers were arrested a couple months ago with Israel claiming them to be secretly working for Hamas?
Well, turns out Israel lied about aid workers being Hamas plants and threatened them and their families to testify as such

I really hope you will hold to what you said earlier about being able to change your opinion, since I am not sure I have the emotional fortitude to continue to relay examples of the Unnecessary Atrocitities that are being committed by the IOF.