Author Topic: I need help with leftism. (Read 1822 times)

Sirrus · March 20, 2011, 12:27:15 PM

I live in not quite completely rural Virginia, but there is countryside within pissing distance of almost everywhere in my town, and subsequently, as you might imagine the views of many of peers are very right wing, very pro-capitalism and after a long chain of several different arguments over the Westboro Baptist Church and the freedom of speech, I've caught a lot of flak and a lot of slander for my views, which in response to the initial arguments was just, well, I'll summarize it for you.

There has been a status fad going around which is as follows: "the US Supreme Court has ruled that you have the right under the First Amendment to protest military funerals... I invite you to start your protest in my front yard and we can see if your first amendment is better than my Second Amendment...Repost if you feel the same!!! welcome to the new liberal america."

I thought this was one of the most handicapped things I've ever read, and I responded essentially saying that free speech was immensely important to America and that just because an opinion is unpopular it shouldn't be censored as long as they aren't breaking any laws.

Long story short, all my right wing friends had a field day with my apparent hatred of America and eventually it degraded into me being called a left wing nutjob, and I threw out some Karl Max quotes and now they're lauding the joys of capitalism and the evils of communism.

I am a Christian, and take my faith seriously. This includes actually having read and pondered the Bible, and I'm convinced after reading the Bible that an ideal political model is one that stresses equality, caring for the poor, and narrowing of class disparity. This ends up being essentially communism, but I think an ideal culture is one that wasn't as oppressive as the communist party in say the USSR where the state and enforced religion was atheism.

I have my convictions, but they ultimately aren't very well supported and it's hard for me to argue for them. (TL;DR starts here) As much as I would love to have the time and mentally ability to read and internalize every bit of Wikipedia related to these topics, I cannot. I know that many members of these forums are left wing, so I was wondering what some good literature to read up on would be. Basically, I want to learn more and have stronger beliefs in the left wing direction.

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Dodger · March 20, 2011, 12:39:35 PM

Quote from: Sirrus on March 20, 2011, 12:27:15 PM

I am a Christian, and take my faith seriously. This includes actually having read and pondered the Bible, and I'm convinced after reading the Bible that an ideal political model is one that stresses equality, caring for the poor, and narrowing of class disparity. This ends up being essentially communism, but I think an ideal culture is one that wasn't as oppressive as the communist party in say Russia where the state and enforced religion was atheism.

I always thought it was kinda ironic that the "Christian" party has classic-liberalism point of views.

But I don't think the government shouldn't have to feed every poor person in America day and night straight out of forced taxpayer money. I think there should possibly be more work programs funded by individual businesses in which people in poverty or near-poverty can be kept at a subsentence level at the least and can be educated and find a job within the company or something similar to this. If it seems that the company is really doing this for a good cause and is actually helping people, then the government should give them a tax break.

However, I believe in Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages and think that the government should not have a lot of direct intervention over poverty. I think that this should be done by individuals and businesses with good motives that are able to train people to be self-sufficient and to even be contributive to society.

Basically in short: People should help people, not the government. Yet the government should also encourage people to help people without giving out 2.43534534+e15 dollars in tax breaks.

Also, sorry I'm not a leftist and responded from a conservative point of view, but yeah. I think in terms of the perfect "Christian" based government would be one that helps people become self-sufficient without becoming dependent.

Sirrus · March 20, 2011, 12:57:05 PM

Quote from: Dodger on March 20, 2011, 12:39:35 PM

I always thought it was kinda ironic that the "Christian" party has classic-liberalism point of views.

But I don't think the government shouldn't have to feed every poor person in America day and night straight out of forced taxpayer money. I think there should possibly be more work programs funded by individual businesses in which people in poverty or near-poverty can be kept at a subsentence level at the least and can be educated and find a job within the company or something similar to this. If it seems that the company is really doing this for a good cause and is actually helping people, then the government should give them a tax break.

However, I believe in Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages and think that the government should not have a lot of direct intervention over poverty. I think that this should be done by individuals and businesses with good motives that are able to train people to be self-sufficient and to even be contributive to society.

Basically in short: People should help people, not the government. Yet the government should also encourage people to help people without giving out 2.43534534+e15 dollars in tax breaks.

Also, sorry I'm not a leftist and responded from a conservative point of view, but yeah. I think in terms of the perfect "Christian" based government would be one that helps people become self-sufficient without becoming dependent.

First of all, why to the first part, the Christian classic-liberalism.

Second all, why not? Why shouldn't a country be "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Don't you think a society where everyone is equal and educated would ultimately be a more intellectually and artistically advanced society than one where every single person is trying to "get theirs" and it's just a competition to see who you can beat?

Azzurolix · March 20, 2011, 01:01:32 PM

Land of the stupid

Dodger · March 20, 2011, 01:10:17 PM

Quote from: Sirrus on March 20, 2011, 12:57:05 PM

First of all, why to the first part, the Christian classic-liberalism.

Well its not really that important to the rest of the argument, but I just see it weird how the conservative party is the "Christian Party" yet doesn't see that socialism might be more bible friendly than capitalism. I still don't think socialism is the perfect "Christian" government however".

Second all, why not? Why shouldn't a country be "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Don't you think a society where everyone is equal and educated would ultimately be a more intellectually and artistically advanced society than one where every single person is trying to "get theirs" and it's just a competition to see who you can beat?

The problem I see with this is natural human nature. If all humans were not greedy or power hungry, I would say socialism would be perfect. But you need a ruling body which will need to keep some order and maintain the peace, and some people with their own agenda will most likely get into power. Because of this, I see capitalism as the next best stable option. It's because of competition among merchants that caused the US to be more technologically advanced at the end of the cold war.

Still, I do agree that competition isn't a flawless and perfect driver of an economy, but it's the best thing that I think we can settle on.

But I still think I need to hear from more leftists before I can really continue on.

From what I can tell, my political views fall under that of a Utilitarianist, which in short is sort of like a modern day conservative that allows for LIMITED government intervention which has to benefit the most people possible.

Kalphiter · March 20, 2011, 01:13:26 PM

Quote from: Dodger on March 20, 2011, 12:39:35 PM

However, I believe in Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages and think that the government should not have a lot of direct intervention over poverty. I think that this should be done by individuals and businesses with good motives that are able to train people to be self-sufficient and to even be contributive to society.

�Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime�

Wizard · March 20, 2011, 01:16:37 PM

While I agree with your point of view you might want to start not reaching conclusions about politics and economics based on what a 2000 year old book written by desert idiots says.

Crysist · March 20, 2011, 01:18:38 PM

Your friends shouldn't do that, not nice.

Sirrus · March 20, 2011, 01:19:34 PM

Quote from: Wizard on March 20, 2011, 01:16:37 PM

While I agree with your point of view you might want to start not reaching conclusions about politics and economics based on what a 2000 year old book written by desert idiots says.

Regardless of what I do or what you do not put your faith in, I don't see how the moral standards outlined in the New Testament are questionable at all, and since we both technically agree, can we not argue over religion?

Wizard · March 20, 2011, 01:22:02 PM

I'm not trying to argue over religion, I'm saying that you're going to have a hell of a lot easier time arguing about this stuff if you've actually thought about the reasons why it's good. If you're just taking it in the rear from the bible you really aren't any better than the rednecks. Presumably though you have good reasons to agree with NT morals (which in general I do too) and so it's those that should be examined if you want to make a moral argument. If you're trying to make an economic argument you could probably look something up, but rednecks won't listen to it.

Sirrus · March 20, 2011, 01:25:26 PM

Right, I have my moral reasons for supporting the ideals of communism, but the whole reason that I made this thread is to get better educated on logical and economical support for communism in order to make a well structured, intelligent argument.

Just because I believe the Bible doesn't mean that I think "because the Bible says so" is a valid argument when discussing economics.

.::Taboo::. · March 20, 2011, 01:26:29 PM

i thought this would be about being left handed.

Tom Gunn · March 20, 2011, 01:27:40 PM

Quote from: .::Taboo::. on March 20, 2011, 01:26:29 PM

i thought this would be about being left handed.

So did I.

Momentum · March 20, 2011, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: .::Taboo::. on March 20, 2011, 01:26:29 PM

i thought this would be about being left handed.

Quote from: Tom Gunn on March 20, 2011, 01:27:40 PM

So did I.

I did too

Crysist · March 20, 2011, 01:31:17 PM

Quote from: Sirrus on March 20, 2011, 01:25:26 PM

Right, I have my moral reasons for supporting the ideals of communism, but the whole reason that I made this thread is to get better educated on logical and economical support for communism in order to make a well structured, intelligent argument.

Just because I believe the Bible doesn't mean that I think "because the Bible says so" is a valid argument when discussing economics.

Two people are working, person A and B. Person A works great and rarely takes breaks, person B is a slacker who doesn't get anything done. Hey look, paychecks. And they get the same amount? If person A realizes this then he thinks he won't have to work as hard, thus nothing gets done as well. Communism in a nutshell?
But I don't know much bout that so thats all I really have to say ._.