Poll

Lol, what are you?

Democrat (Demoman)
13 (26%)
Republican (public dancer)
10 (20%)
Tea Party (with Alice)
1 (2%)
Tea Party (without Alice)
3 (6%)
French Canadian politics person
2 (4%)
Independent (Lone free ranger)
20 (40%)
Green Army
1 (2%)
Tan Army
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Author Topic: Politics and the people in it!  (Read 3038 times)

Wanna hear a joke?

Stephen Harper!
Lack of reaction images makes it less hilariously true.

My parents personally think most republicans are stupid and while I agree I find myself more independent than liberal.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 12:08:33 AM by CoolKoopaTroopa »

My parent personally think most republicans are stupid and while I agree I find myself more independent than liberal.
Ha, ohhh how I find children with no real-life experiences, expressing their political views quit humorous.
Also, don't just follow your parents.

Following your parents political views is as bland as voting McCain because he's a white male.

Following your parents political views is as bland as voting McCain because he's a white male.
snap
o/

I'm a Republican for many reasons, mainly because Obama and the democrats just say "screw national budgets, let's take from the upper class and give to the poor, and raise taxes for the wealthy!"

Ha, ohhh how I find children with no real-life experiences, expressing their political views quit humorous.
Also, don't just follow your parents.
You must have not read my post. My parents are democratic I'm independent.
And stop acting superior just because you're a year older than me you douche.

Both sides are handicapped imo. The whole "party" concept never made sense to me since almost everybody's beliefs differ in some way.

I'm a Republican for many reasons, mainly because Obama and the democrats just say "screw national budgets, let's take from the upper class and give to the poor, and raise taxes for the wealthy!"
And McCain+Palin want creationism presented in schools

Funny when you nitpick at little details

I support the abolishment of nations, government and the monetary system. As far as Nations, we need to realize that the idea of patriotism/nationalism can only serve to detach us from our unity as a species and with the universe.

The monetary system is probably the most widely accept and undisputed institutions to date. The fractional reserve banking system constantly creates money through a process involving loans handed out to the government from a central bank, which is placed in a commercial bank, and then redistributed as a new loan that depends on the original deposit amount.

Since all money comes from the central bank, then the money that must cover the interest that came with the loans doesn't exist and thus money is created out of debt. As the debt grows larger, we are forced to print new money with nothing to back it up. Inflation occurs forcing a strain on business and people to compete for labor. When people can't make their payments that was caused by the inflation, their house is repossessed by the banks. The bank can usually resell the house to make a profit. This system inherently has defaults and foreclosures built into it. It transfers the wealth from the middle class to the rich ruling elite.

So, with this money freely circulating through commerce, we lose our connection with our original debt making all the above paragraph possible. Money has to be freely circulating for our economy is dependent on constant growth. This would be okay if we lived on a planet of infinite resources. In the name of consumption and profit, we consume resources irrespective to how much it is abundant and how fast it regenerates. Corporations will also either destroy/hold back maximum sustainable production of a resource in some cases in order to produce scarcity and profit. This is unsustainable. Also, corporations and companies intentionally make products that are designed to not live up to it's full potential so that you will buy a replacement or the upgrade. There is no excuse for having computers that are almost immediately obsolete when they exit the assembly line.

As the economy grows, companies and banks will move into developing nations and intervene with large loans in the name of "speeding development." The nation is left in a huge debt that the people are left with and the bank comes back with a proposition to sell it's resources to a said company (usually an American company since the U.S. is the largest producer of capital - 22.3% last I checked) or have military base built or ask for their U.N. vote etc. etc.

It is this system that holds back our ability to live up to our full potential as human beings.

The government's only jobs are too make laws, keep civil order, and protect the nation. If it weren't for scarcity that drives 98% of all crime, then civil order wouldn't be needed. As for drug users and mental patients, their condition is a product of a past neglect in their life. A study in Canada studied Self Delete victims. They founds all people have the gene for Self Delete, but that gene was only activated when the victim was abused as a child. From this we can see that people are not "naturally horrible" or that there is "human nature", there is only human behavior which is influenced by our genes, which are influenced by our environment. We can see, that it "bad" behavior isn't a product of our genes but our society.

As for war, we wouldn't need war if it weren't for scarcity and other things that drive separation into us (nationalism, religious fundamentalism etc.)

Now for laws. Laws are futile attempts at fixing technical problems. If a person is drunk, maybe our transportation system may need to be fixed or altered in order to help this problem. GPS navigation could easily solve this. Jay walking? There are numerous solutions for this besides fining the individual.

All this in mind, we need a system that utilizes the planets resources to maximum efficiency but still in a sustainable way. We need a system where we keep in mind the well-being of people not profit. We need a system where people aren't forced into labor but can pursue sciences and arts. Technology can do all of this.

What is the only thing that can better our lives?

Is it religion? No, religion provides nothing but intangible emotional solace for those who need it.

Is it money? No, you can't shove money into your car to make it run or eat money.

What about the government? Surely the socialists, the democrats, or the republicans have technical answers. Nope, they aren't engineers. Our problems are technical not political.

So, when we realize it's science and technology that betters our lives we see things in a drastically new way. We see our only form of government is the planets resources and our primary goal is the intelligent management of these resources. Our only religion is to better humanity as a whole and to realize that we are not exempt from nature. We cannot survive without the sun, the air etc.

If we were to work together we could design a society that could care for all people if we produced abundance with all our resources. And for resources that are finite? We use them to the greatest possible potential and come up with alternative materials either natural or man made. We would have to redesign cities to a more efficient layout.

Almost done...

Now you may be wondering how we will manage our resources.

Well first we will need a computer operated tracking system.  Satellite technology as well as others are capable of this. We will call this strategic tracking. This is where we track our resources, where they are and how fast they regenerate/how fast they regenerate. If a tree takes so long to grow and we are chopping them down faster than they grow back, than then is unsustainable and can be dangerous if left unchecked.

Now that we have our resources we need to make things with them. This will be strategic production. If I want to build a table I should make it with as little resources as possible and it should be designed to last as long as possible. When it does break down, it should be designed to recycle. With this in mind, people would describe their needs and we would provide for them. And as technology advances overtime, we will be able to produce more using less resources.

Of course it's not practical for people to have 1 of everything. That is wasteful and not necessary. Society should use up valuable resources for something that a person will only use once every 2 weeks. So we should have centers set up in cities prepared to supply these items when the need arises. This will be called strategic access. People will be able to check out an item and check it back in when they're finished with it, much how a library works. If the object breaks down then it is simply recycled and another is built in its place.

Ok, so, we've covered production and tracking. Now for strategic distribution. It is currently a scientific fact that the shortest route between two points is a straight line. So to be even more efficient, we need to shorten said line. This means that manufacturing should be localized and resources should be taken from the nearest source. As long as resources aren't taken faster than it regenerates it will be fine and a resource (water for example) may need to be taken from multiple sources at a time in the name of sustainability. It's pointless to build or harvest something in one continent and ship it to another unless it is only available in that area.

Some things have greater and safer use than others. Oils and fossil fuels harm the environment and thus should only be used as last resort. We have alternate forms of energy. Geothermal for example can produce 2000 zeta joules of power that is easily tap able with thousands more accessible with improved technology. The earth only uses 0.5 zeta joules a year. As society grows we could have about 2000 of clean energy from this medium alone. Not to mention the huge potential for space based solar and wind, tidal, and wave energy. All of which could sustain us many times over.

With these things in mind we see how this is all possible with computers and technology. Most of these systems are already used by companies and it would just be a matter of scaling them out. The question shouldn't be if we have enough money but if we have the resources.

Now some common objections come to this system.

Communism
Communism still uses money, trade, military, social class, government, etc. All of which are made obsolete in this system. And besides, there are so many versions it's hard to describe exactly what it is. Communism still imposes property which is a product of scarcity. Since there isn't enough to go around you feel the need to "own" things.

Well if it's not communism it sounds like a commune.
We aren't isolationists as the hippies were. We embrace technology and to simply splinter off in our own faction would only serve to detach of from the rest of humanity and dampen our ability to use technology and resources to it's highest potential. This would be counter-productive. This would create competition and war as we fight for resources and space etc.

Utopianist!
No there is no such thing as a perfect society but it's a hell of a lot better than what we have now. Their will still be problems but innovation, change, and technology ca[n solve these when not held back by profit.

Ok, but people will become lazy if they are freed from labor.
People don't become fat lazy blobs if they don't work. Their interests don't disappear, they change. They will go into the arts or sciences. They will find hobbies or explore new areas of thinking such as mechanical engineering, or architecture. Not only this but they can further their interests without the choke hold of the monetary system. You also do these things absent of the desire for money if you truly love doing it.

But competition is good!
The concept of this system is much like the human body. If the brain decided it was more important than the heart and it deserved more oxygen, the body would quickly fail. Animals live in harmony with their surrounding when there is enough of the necessities to go around. They don't fight when food is abundant. However, if scarce they will resort to it. To try to dominate each other or nature is to quickly ensure our own demise.

Who will run this society.
Well most of the systems would be automated. But those who oversaw these systems could they take it over? Well it'd be like taking over Wikipedia. It would only hinder those around him and himself. He wouldn't even really gain anything in the process just the resources that were already available to him anyway.

How will decisions be arrived at and put into action?
The running of society is a technical process that will rarely require human opinion. Did you vote on how a bridge functions or how a house should be built? No because these things are solid and concrete. You're opinion will not alter the most efficient way something can function. So logically we must always go with the most efficient, sustainable, up-to-date decision.

What about bad or evil people?
As stated above we are the products of our environments.

So yea that's what I would like to see. This is the Resource Based Economy as proposed by social engineer Jacque Fresco.

Pipe dreams. All of it. Pipe dreams.

No, no you're absolutely right about every last detail you put into that long winded post that most people here will not have the attention span to read let along glance at.

However, the sheer amount of things you'd have to change, let alone the sheer amount of things that just physically could not be changed, makes everything you said completely irrelevant to a current state of society. First, humans are greedy, self centered bastards. Second, humans work on the principles of cause and effect, the idea of conditioning. We have trained ourselves in what we call morals. Even in your perfect system, one day there'd be a guy who decides to break the status-quo because he thinks he's a god-damned individualist. You just described a system with no laws that are automated by machines. We created the machines, and so we can very well destroy them. When this "freedom fighter" goes about and uproots everything you described thanks to his own human error, no one will know what to do. They'll have relied on the automation their entire lives. This forgettard and his revolution will take over the whole damn system and we'll have to start over again.

Now, can it work? Sure. It might actually work. Who knows. Maybe we'll get lucky and thousands of years of human evolution will be stopped in a couple of decades. The problem is, we're designed to biologically fight to prevail. Unless there is a strong, emotional attachment to another human being, we could give two stuffs about his or her life and or well being.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm trying to stuff on you because I have this abundant desire to inflate my ego like some other members, I really did take the time to read it all, and I loved a lot of what you had to say. But we live in the real world where Utopian stuff just won't fly with modern people. Mostly because people are richards. Our systems of Government, at least in the major powers of the world, are based around the choice of the people, and it'd be very, very hard to convince someone not to work without money. As soon as you get that far and you'd have lost half of your audience, assuming you're speaking to a lot of uneducated people. Which, again, you would be.

I'd love to see this system of yours work. I really would. But let's face it. It'd be so hard to implement it, that, there's really no point in trying it. Perhaps someday when we've evolved far enough to the point that everyone on the planet is at least as smart as a high school graduate, but still putting in the same amount of effort we put in today, then you'd be able to convince a mass public to this idea. Until then, we need to think in terms of how things work now. Think instead of in "what-ifs" but rather in "how-can." As in: "how can I implement these core ideas to still function within the society I have to work with?"

Perhaps keep the idea of creating goods designed to function for as long as possible in the most efficient way. Perhaps mandate a law that states no good can be made without a strict 'code of usefulness' applied to it. Keep the idea about localized work forces. Give incentives to large business owners, and small ones alike, that manufacturing domestically would be a better choice. Something being implemented now is the use of alternative energy, perhaps you could speed up the process instead of weening people off of it like we're trying to today?

There are many ways that a lot of your ideology could greatly benefit the society we have right now, putting us at a surplus economically, that could then harbor a greater future for everyone. I think if you think fundamentally while also in the same frame of mind you brought to everything you stated above, you can truly strengthen humanity for the better, without worrying too much about the huge protests that would be brought about when the masses got wind of your idea.

Really, be a politician if you can. Don't be corrupted and keep this ideology you have firm and you could really make a difference in the world.

well i dont want a perfect society. i love living in a world where one man can be better then another.

Fun fact: on retirement, George Washington declared that it was a bad idea to form political parties.

I'm a Republican for many reasons, mainly because Obama and the democrats just say "screw national budgets, let's take from the upper class and give to the poor, and raise taxes for the wealthy!"
Bill Clinton had us in a record-breaking surplus of 230 billion and he was a Democrat. Now look at what happened when Bush was President; he almost had this country in the hands of another depression.

I don't think parties have to do with how they manage budgets...

I'm a Republican for many reasons, mainly because Obama and the democrats just say "screw national budgets, let's take from the upper class and give to the poor, and raise taxes for the wealthy!"
Are you joking?