Fox News Viewers Threaten American Atheists

[Dodger]

Mage I was trying to get the bonus by using only Gospel and OT references!

[Ad Bot]

[Wizzeh]

Actually, it's figurative.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm
I'm not going to read through that. "Heaven and earth" is clearly not figurative. That's a bullstuff excuse and blatantly not true.

The other meaning is also "accomplished". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accomplished?show=1&t=1313013270 Notice how the 2nd definition corresponds to fulfilled.

You know full well what accomplished means. When a law is accomplished it is brought into effect.

Also remember that in verses 19-20, Jesus states that only until we are more righteous then the Pharisees that we will get into the Kingdom of God. Remember that the Pharisees were forced to keep the old Torah law yet would not be righteous enough to get into heaven. This makes the law unnecessary.

Clearly jesus wanted people to listen to him too, but they have to listen to the ot law as well.

"...We can see that Jesus did not come to destroy the law at all. He came to fulfill it and, by so doing, he established the law as being from God (Rom. 3:31). Jesus was to the law what a marriage is to an engagement, a flower is to a bud, and a completed picture is to a silhouette. When an engagement ends in marriage, a bud produces a flower, and a silhouette is finished in a picture, the engagement, bud, and silhouette are not destroyed; they accomplish their intended purpose and are left behind that the completed form might exist. In a similar way, Christ "is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Rom. 10:4)."

A law's "purpose" is to be carried out, not to turn into something else, which is the point I've been trying to make.

[SkullCandy]

I'm glad to be an Atheist

[Dodger]

In Deuteronomy 32:1, in the song of Moses, God is talking to Israel when He says: "Give ear, 0 ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, 0 earth, the words of my mouth"
In the song of Moses, God is depicting the fate of Israel when He says: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains" (vs. 22).

Is God here talking about burning up the earth? No, he is talking about bringing judgment upon Israel. He had already told them the type of judgment they could expect. "The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand" (Deut. 28:49).

In the song of Moses, God is telling His people that He had delivered them from the oppressor, but that if they became disobedient He would bring all sorts of trouble upon them. It was a song of deliverance, but also a song of warning. In Reve¬lation 15:2-3 we see the saints singing the song of Moses, and also the song of the Lamb, after they had gotten their victory over the Beast.

But apocalyptic and symbolical language is used in the song of Moses in describing the judgment of God. When Israel is finally destroyed, it is as though heaven and earth are burned up.


In Isaiah 51:13 God said that He had "stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth" Once again, is God speaking here of the literal heavens and earth?

Read on in this same passage to verse 16: "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foun¬dations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

Read that verse again. It could not be talking of the formation of the literal heavens and earth, for that had taken place more than 3,000 years before! So, then, what is He talking about? The verse explains itself. He is talking about "Zion." He is talk¬ing about "my people" In other words, He is talking about Israel. He is talking in this verse about the formation of Israel.


In Bible figurative language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation or people.

With this in mind, we can look at the very first chapter of Isaiah, in which God begins to give predictions of coming invasions and captivities of His people; and in Isaiah 1:2 He said:

"Hear, 0 heavens, and give ear, 0 earth: for the LORD hath spoken, and I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me."

To whom is He speaking when He addresses, “O heavens" and "0 earth"? He is talking to Israel. This shows very clearly that "heavens and earth" are symbolical language for Israel. In this passage He went on to say:

"Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah." Now God was not speaking to Sodom and Gomorrah, for they had been destroyed many years previously. But the rulers and people of Israel were likened to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and it was to the "heavens and earth" also that He was speaking. The "heavens and earth" and also "the rulers of Sodom and Gomorrah" referred to Israel as a nation.

And in Isaiah 34:4-5 God said that "all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”
Read Matthew 24 too

In Jeremiah 22:29 God says, "0 earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord." And in verse 1 (along with verses 11, 18 and 24) we had read that the words were for the people of Judah, concerning the time when they would be taken "into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans" (vs. 25). It was not the whole physical earth God was talking to, but the people.

If the dissolving of heaven and earth were to be taken literally in all the passages of the Old Testament where such language is used, it would necessarily mean that the heavens and earth were to be destroyed numerous times! The language has to be figurative.

This brings us back to our comments on the cosmic disturbances mentioned in Matthew 24:29, when "the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" There Jesus was not talking about the literal heavens coming apart. He was talking about the rulers and the dignitaries of the nation of Israel falling. This happened in A.D. 70 and there was no more a nation of Israel.

Isaiah 13:13 said, "Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger" Some, who take the literalistic interpretation approach to all prophecy, might apply this to the end of the world's history. But prophecies like this actually applied to spiritual things - the passing away of the old, and the transformation of things into newness of life.


While the coming of Jesus Christ made possible the passing away of the old and the introduction of the new through the institution of the new covenant (so vividly discussed by the writer of Hebrews), yet much of all this was not eliminated completely until A.D.70 when Jerusalem and the Temple were completely destroyed and the old actually ceased to be. As the writer said in Hebrews 8:13, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is READY to vanish away."

While the coming of Christ, and especially His death, made possible this new area of things, yet the manifestation of all this was not possible until the Temple itself and all its rituals were completely abolished. As the writer of Hebrews said, "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing." (Hebrews 9:8). In the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, after it was no longer standing, it was manifested that the old covenant had vanished away, and the new heaven and new earth of this gospel dispensation was now in effect.


And it was in this same context that God said, "For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirl¬wind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." (Isaiah 66:15). The Lord comes! And He did come, with the fires of His fury upon the land of Israel. And as a result, it could be said, "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall YOUR SEED and YOUR NAME remain." (Isaiah 66:22) Out of the ruins of the old heavens and the old earth, and the old Jerusalem, there comes a new earth and a new Jerusalem. This was the "seed out of Jacob" (Isaiah 65:9) and the "na¬tion that was not called by my name" (Isaiah 65:1). The whole situation has changed, and all things are new (Rev. 21:5).


But this language speaks of Israel (the heavens and earth of Isaiah 51:16) passing away. With the passing away of Israel, all the old covenant became a thing of the past. All was fulfilled. See Luke 21:22 where it says of Israel's destruction, "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." And Jesus said, "This generation (the generation during which He lived) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt. 24:34).

Some of the old Reformation preachers understood the meaning of those words, "heaven and earth:' as meaning the political or government areas of life. For example, most respected John Owen, writing of the demise of the Roman empire, said that it "was shivered to pieces by many barbarous nations; who, settling themselves in the fruitful soils of Europe, began to plant their heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, growing up into civil state:' etc. (John Owen, vol. 8, p. 265). Here John Owen had reference to the shaking of the Roman Empire, but later in this book I give a lengthy quotation of his where he had the reference to the Jewish religious structure which was removed before the full realization of the new covenant in the kingdom of Christ.

Cut out some important parts of the article

[Wizzeh]

Jesus christ I'm not going to read that enormous wall of text just so I can tell you that you're a moron.

[DestroyerOfBlocks]

Oh boy oh boy, religion.

[Dodger]

Jesus christ I'm not going to read that enormous wall of text just so I can tell you that you're a moron.

Dismissive much?

Here's an even better TL:DR

While the coming of Jesus Christ made possible the passing away of the old and the introduction of the new through the institution of the new covenant (so vividly discussed by the writer of Hebrews), yet much of all this was not eliminated completely until A.D.70 when Jerusalem and the Temple were completely destroyed and the old actually ceased to be. As the writer said in Hebrews 8:13, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is READY to vanish away."

While the coming of Christ, and especially His death, made possible this new area of things, yet the manifestation of all this was not possible until the Temple itself and all its rituals were completely abolished. As the writer of Hebrews said, "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing." (Hebrews 9:8). In the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, after it was no longer standing, it was manifested that the old covenant had vanished away, and the new heaven and new earth of this gospel dispensation was now in effect.


And it was in this same context that God said, "For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirl¬wind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." (Isaiah 66:15). The Lord comes! And He did come, with the fires of His fury upon the land of Israel. And as a result, it could be said, "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall YOUR SEED and YOUR NAME remain." (Isaiah 66:22) Out of the ruins of the old heavens and the old earth, and the old Jerusalem, there comes a new earth and a new Jerusalem. This was the "seed out of Jacob" (Isaiah 65:9) and the "na¬tion that was not called by my name" (Isaiah 65:1). The whole situation has changed, and all things are new (Rev. 21:5).

[stuntman021]

hold up, hold up
people who watch fox news are intolerant dumbasses?
holy stuff nobody ever knew this before
this is so surprising

[Wizzeh]

Dismissive much?

Here's an even better TL:DR

Hebrews 8:13, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is READY to vanish away."

Except, as I've already established, Jesus said that the laws COULDN'T pass away until heaven and earth ended.

"The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing." (Hebrews 9:8)

The law wasn't complete until the old and nt. I accept that.

Last paragraph: That's clearly not referring to jesus. I don't remember any fire along with jesus.

[stuntman021]

The Prophet said, "Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings, the nights."
- Hadith 2:38
islam 1, christianity 0

[Dodger]

Last paragraph: That's clearly not referring to jesus. I don't remember any fire along with jesus.
It's stating that a new (better stated: renewed) Earth and Jerusalem will rise

And the downfall of governments are represented by heavenly disturbances. For example, Isaiah 34:4 (nations); Jeremiah 4:23-25 (Jews by Babylon); Ezekiel 32:7 (destruction of Egypt).

The shaking of heaven and earth, and planting the heavens and foundation of the earth, are Bible language referring to change, transformation, and making into a new thing, of God's people.

Some of us may have to re-orient our thinking to understand the meaning of these passages. The Hebrew people understood this kind of language. It was their style. We need to see things in context, and the context of these New Testament passages had reference to the first century - not the end of the Roman Empire, not the Reformation period, and not a future state of the world at the end of time - but of what was to take place in the generation of those living in the time of Christ.

This same kind of language was used over and over again in the Old Testament as has been previously pointed out as we dealt with Matthew 24:29 in this series.
Jesus used this kind of language in the above-mentioned verse (Matthew 24:29), and He used this same kind of language in verse 35 when He said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away" Why should Jesus use a different kind of prophetic language than was used in the Old Testament and that was understood by the Hebrew mind?

One thing I have learned about literalism and symbolism in the Bible, is this: History and events are generally given in literal language, and prophecies are generally given in symbolical language. When God created the heavens and the earth, that was a historical event; the language describing that event is literal. When God is describing the downfall of Israel in prophetic terms, He uses symbolical language, like the destruction of the heavens and the earth. He does not mean that He will actually destroy the heavens and the earth; that is prophetic and symbolical language.

In Hebrews 1.10-12 we have the same kind of language: "Thou, Lord in the beginning hast laid the foundations of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed"

Matthew 24:35 could be the same as a condensed paraphrase of these verses in Hebrews, for they are talking about the same thing. In fact, just about all the book of Hebrews is about the passing away of the old heavens and earth of the old covenant and nation of Israel, as is so plainly brought out in Hebrews 10:26-28 where it speaks of the shaking of heaven and earth, and the removing of those things that can be shaken, and our receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken or moved. Read it!


The literal earth is not predicted to pass away. In fact, in Psalm 104:5 David said that God "laid the foundation of the earth, that it shall not be removed forever." And in Ecclesiastes 1:4 Solomon said, "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth forever."

In Matthew 24:35 Jesus is not anywhere speaking of the passing away of the literal heavens and earth, but of the coming destruction of Israel and Jerusalem and the Temple and all the rituals and ceremonies involved in their existence and practices. There was to be a new heavens and a new earth as a result, of which we speak shortly.


hen in II Peter 3:3 Peter said that scoffers would come in “the last days,” saying, "Where is the promise of his coming?" (vss. 3-4). We have gone to great length in this series to show how "the last days" were those of their age, the Jewish age, and not our age. Nearly 40 years went by after Jesus said He was going to come in judgment on Israel, and people would be asking in those last days, "When is He coming? He said He was going to come in 'this generation' and these things would all take place which He promised, but He has not come yet. When will the promise be fulfilled?" This is what Peter said they would be asking in the closing days of that age - in "the last days." Not our last days, but their last days.


Peter says next (vss. 5-7) that those who would ask that question were ignorant of a former example of a prophesied judgment which came to pass - the flood. He said that "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" (vs. 6). The word "world" is from the Greek word "kosmos" which means the world in its orderly arrangement, including the inhabitants. Scofield's note on this word in Matthew 4:8 also says, "When used in the NT of humanity, the ‘world’ of men, it is organized humanity - humanity in families, tribes, nations - which is meant.” It was this "world" which perished - not the earth itself. In Matthew 24:37 Jesus likewise compares His coming in judgment on Israel "as the days of Noah were."

"But;" Peter said, "the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment of ungodly men" (vs. 7).

Why would Peter not be talking about the same heavens and earth which were talked about in the Old Testament in prophetic passages? Indeed, as the "world" of mankind with its system and arrangement passed away (not the earth) so Peter was predicting a coming judgment and destruction of Israel - the prophetic heavens and earth of prophecy. "The perdition of ungodly men" (vs. 7) is not talking about the literal heavens and earth vanishing, but of this nation of ungodly men passing away. This would happen shortly.

"Once again, it is common for Bible readers unfamiliar with the apocalyptic imagery of the Old Testament to take these words as literal events associated with a final cosmic conflagration. Indeed, there are even some who are considered biblical scholars who willfully ignore this Old Testament imagery in their insistence on a literal destruction of the universe." (Randall E. Otto, p. 226). Otto then goes on to say that the text of II Peter 3:10 is the same kind of apocalyptic text as found in the symbolic imagery of Isaiah 13:9-10, 23:21, Ezek. 32:7-8ff, Joel 2:30 ff, Amos 8:9, and Zeph. 1:14-18.


God did destroy nations, but never again the whole world. And we do not know of any prediction anywhere in the Bible that says He will destroy this entire universe.
The word "earth" (II Peter 3:vs. 7) here means "land" and refers prophetically to the land of Israel. "Burned up" refers to the utter destruction that took place in those days throughout the entire land of Palestine. As the "world" of sinners were destroyed in the flood, so here the "earth/land" of Israel was completely destroyed.

The "heavens" would pass away in this day of the Lord, Peter said (vs. 10). Yes, they would pass away just like the heavens were predicted to be removed in the Old Testament when "the day of the Lord" came, at various times. This is prophetic language. When the rulers of the nation which God destroyed passed away, it was said the heavens passed away. The invading armies did this. But in the New Testament we are thinking of the nation of Israel - the only nation under consideration in the whole New Testament. When the heavens passed away, it was Israel which passed away.

It is interesting that the word "coming" here in verse 11 ("un¬to the coming of the day of God") is the same identical word in the Greek ("parousia") as used of the "coming" of Christ Himself in numerous places in the New Testament.

I grow hungry. If you really want any more argument, go read through the full article or wait a bit.

[Doomonkey]

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 1:21

New testament message: Screw the law.

[Oasis]

Dear god, that's hilarious.

[Shadowed999]

Unneeded