science debate megathread

[Dreams_Of_Cheese]

Two words
Green House

but greenhouse is one word 

[Ad Bot]

[Harm94]

but greenhouse is one word  

it burns :(
that one truly hurt

[Ipquarx]

Except I've done this several times myself from various sources. Not to mention, I have heard many people say the same thing.

Again, lots of different factors. Crop conditions, pesticides, weather, growing location, harvesting schedule, etc etc etc. There really isn't a way to fairly assess them unless you were to say, grow a large crop of half GMO and half non-GMO and do blind taste tests over a large sample group. I severely doubt you've done this.

[Headcrab Zombie]

We'll that's all fine and dandy and whatnot, but I still prefer my fresh, 100% real food anyway. Have you compared a GMO tomato to a locally or garden grown one? There's no contest. Same way when it comes to watermelon, apples, grapes, oranges, green beans, kale - the list goes on.

I work in the produce department of a grocery store. I've tasted just about everything we sell, both conventional and organic. For the most part, the two taste the same. Any differences in taste (I've even had conventional produce that tasted better than the organic product) is due to different region of growth, different weather conditions in that region, etc.

Let me give you a quick lesson in scientific method. A proper scientific experiment requires elimination of as many(, preferably all,) variables as possible, except for the independent variable (is this case, taste, which isn't very effective because it's highly subjective, in no way quantifiable, and subject to psychological factors ["it tastes better because I think it does"]) that you're testing. If you just grab a random conventional item and a random organic item of the same variety, there's a ton of variables you're not eliminating: area of origin, weather conditions in that area at the time, time in transit, ripeness, how long it's been sitting out, etc, that you have no control over. You'd need to grow GMO and non-GMO right next to each other, grow them equally(meaning give stuff like water equally), and pick the two and eat them at the same time in order to have a fair taste test.

But whatever. I googled "gmo vs non gmo blind taste test"
The first result was this: A GMO tomato that (reportedly) tastes better

I severely doubt you've done this.

I really doubt anyone has done it, because I couldn't find crap from above-mentioned google search

[Harm94]

A lot of older folks here will tell me that tomatos today don't taste as good as they use to. Not because of GMOs, but rather though hybridization. My history of art teacher has also backed up that claim to with straw berries.

Also the win-win solution, grow both natural and gmo products together. Everyone gets what the want.

[Headcrab Zombie]

A lot of older folks here will tell me that tomatos today don't taste as good as they use to. Not because of GMOs, but rather though hybridization.

Yep. They've been bred for shelf-life and as a result they've lost flavor. The article I linked above mentions this

My history of art teacher has also backed up that claim to with straw berries.

I think it has more to do with season. In the US, they're great spring-early summer, but they're pretty much trash in comparison during the winter

[SeventhSandwich]

If I recall correct, genetically modified corn was banned in France and other EU states.

It's banned in France literally just because the French are snooty about their cuisine. That's literally it. It has absolutely nothing to do with safety.

Also, the cigarette brown townogy doesn't work because cigarettes weren't labeled with warnings because no one had done the necessary research, and the research that was published was either ignored or inconclusive(too small). GMOs have been researched. In fact, they're one of the most researched things in food safety.

Also the win-win solution, grow both natural and gmo products together. Everyone gets what the want.

That seems like a pointless compromise, and you won't 'get what you want' anyway because the 'natural' products will die off via insect infestation more often than the GMO plants and the genes inserted into the GMOs will be naturally selected to be more predominant in the population because GMO plants are better at being plants.

A lot of older folks here will tell me that tomatos today don't taste as good as they use to. Not because of GMOs, but rather though hybridization

Sounds plausible but you also have to take in the fact that people are predisposed to remember things as better in the past. It's called Rosy Retrospection I think.

[BluetoothBoy]

I work in the produce department of a grocery store. I've tasted just about everything we sell, both conventional and organic. For the most part, the two taste the same. Any differences in taste (I've even had conventional produce that tasted better than the organic product) is due to different region of growth, different weather conditions in that region, etc.

Let me give you a quick lesson in scientific method. A proper scientific experiment requires elimination of as many(, preferably all,) variables as possible, except for the independent variable (is this case, taste, which isn't very effective because it's highly subjective, in no way quantifiable, and subject to psychological factors ["it tastes better because I think it does"]) that you're testing. If you just grab a random conventional item and a random organic item of the same variety, there's a ton of variables you're not eliminating: area of origin, weather conditions in that area at the time, time in transit, ripeness, how long it's been sitting out, etc, that you have no control over. You'd need to grow GMO and non-GMO right next to each other, grow them equally(meaning give stuff like water equally), and pick the two and eat them at the same time in order to have a fair taste test.

But whatever. I googled "gmo vs non gmo blind taste test"
The first result was this: A GMO tomato that (reportedly) tastes better
I really doubt anyone has done it, because I couldn't find crap from above-mentioned google search

I know about the scientific method; I was trying to keep "science" out of this. Sorry, but you haven't tasted the tomatoes from my (or my neighbors') garden(s). All I'm saying is that I found that I find the taste of naturally and locally grown foods better than most of what can be purchased at the supermarket. Throw your facts and research at me as much as you want, but they do taste better to me, and nothing you guys say is gonna change that. Case closed, end of story.

[SeventhSandwich]

Have you compared a GMO tomato to a locally or garden grown one? There's no contest.

No, but scientists have and the GMOs are substantially equivalent to non-GMOs. That means they, on average, have the same amount of sugar, fiber, citric acid, etc, that you'd find in a regular tomato. The only reason you think they taste worse is because you do not trust them.

I'm willing to bet actual money that if you designed a double-blind experiment that tested your ability to discern between GMO and non-GMO tomatoes grown in a similar climate in the same soil with the same water, you wouldn't be able to choose the right one any better than random chance.

I know about the scientific method; I was trying to keep "science" out of this.

By the quotation marks, are you implying that a double-blind experiment is not science? If so, I'm not so sure that you know about the scientific method.

Throw your facts and research at me as much as you want, but they do taste better to me, and nothing you guys say is gonna change that. Case closed, end of story.

Okay, so let me get a grasp of what you're saying here:

"Throw the truth and all of your evidence at me as much as you want, but I'm going to hold my evidently misconceived and false view because forget you, that's why"

All I'm saying is that I found that I find the taste of naturally and locally grown foods better than most of what can be purchased at the supermarket.

That's probably more to do with the fact that you're getting fresher produce that has been off of the vine for much less time than the tomatoes shipped in to your grocery store by major large-scale farmers. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that your experimental-tomato(The GMO brand) has an extra gene, but the fact that it's been sitting in a crate for a few extra days. These are those control variables that Headcrab Zombie was talking about. Does this explain it any clearer?

[Gumba Jonny]

metachlorobenzene
3-pentbrown town
2,3-dimethylbutane

this is the true devil language

[Headcrab Zombie]

That's probably more to do with the fact that you're getting fresher produce that has been off of the vine for much less time than the tomatoes shipped in to your grocery store by major large-scale farmers. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that your experimental-tomato(The GMO brand) has an extra gene, but the fact that it's been sitting in a crate for a few extra days. These are those control variables that Headcrab Zombie was talking about. Does this explain it any clearer?

This.
It's store-bought vs home-grown you're comparing, not gmo vs non-gmo.
If you're saying home-grown produce tastes better than store-bought, I'm not going to argue against that at all. It's a ton fresher and you know exactly how it was grown. But it has nothing to do with gmo or non-gmo

[Tezuni 2.0]

But GMOs are actually bad; like this isn't even an issue of being anti-science.

No they're not. There's a lot of anti-GMO propaganda from people who don't like it because they think it's 'unnatural' but very little actual science showing that GMOs are bad for you. There was a French study done with a few dozen lab mice that showed that mice who consumed GMO corn grew tumors, but the sample size was very small and it was performed with lab mice that spontaneously generate tumors for cancer research. I think what it boils down to is that people distrust them because they aren't natural, which means very little and doesn't actually make them bad or good for you.

I can link you to a video where an actual cancer researcher brown townyzes the current science being done with GMOs. He explains things very clearly and actually understands the material he's talking about.

People should know genetic engineering is NOT some kind of evil sorcery.  It has great potential in the future.

However, scientists are playing with genes here; the whole process and understanding of genetic engineering is crude and only the tip of the ice berg. Organisms have natural barriers in their cells to prevent the mixing of DNA from other species.  Scientists currently use viruses to inject cells with new DNA. Ok, so that's not so bad though right?  If you can get over the fact they are bypassing nature's old design, sure.  Next you have to consider the ramifications.

Current genes in all organisms DNA strands are tried and true over millions of years of natural selection in nature.  New genes could change chemical reactions within cells and change how they function.  That said, the results could be the creation of new toxins, allergens, and other nasty stuff.  If you still feel everyone has the right to eat what they want, consider that these toxins and such could build up in the food chain, and that would be catastrophic.  The concept has great potential, but its far too dangerous to be mass marketing GMOs at this point in time.  And it may very well be too late to stop.  GMO have been grown, spread, and mixed with organisms.  We've released pandoras box, but we can still stop further damage until we get a better understanding and control over this science.

[SeventhSandwich]

Well, the thing about DNA is that when you 'inject genes', it's not like you're holding a flame to stuff to see if it catches. The translation of DNA to protein is well understood, and you can recall from Biology that the base pairs of DNA correspond to codons which determine the amino acids that form polypeptides and proteins.

In short, when you 'inject DNA' into a plant, you know what protein is going to be produced and there's even measures you can take to make sure that all the DNA was injected properly.

[TristanLuigi]

I

wha

why would you make this thread

like really, there is absolutely nowhere this could go but down the drain.

[Maxwell.]

I

wha

why would you make this thread

like really, there is absolutely nowhere this could go but down the drain.

I don't see any heated arguments except for a discussion about GMO