Best BL RPG You've Played

[otto-san]

With all that said, resource collecting doesn't necessarily have to be considered a grind, either. As the wandering vagabond picks the berries from the bush, the player gobbles up all the resources and stuffs out a thousand shiny weapons.

But really the dividing point is that player retention is the singlehandedly most important thing to making a multiplayer RPG work. If you can't get this to stick, then everything is going to fall to pieces. This is why grinding is so commonplace because it's so easy to implement and it works up until everyone hits that content wall where it's either too hard to progress or they've exhausted all avenues of the server.

yeah, though to be fair, i'm not sure if extended periods of grinding would be outstanding for player retention. for the endgame it's definitely a nice thing to have available. i think runescape is pretty good about making grinding work, but it's still not always very fun, especially when you have to grind and do a certain activity to do something completely different like a quest (btw runescape has some pretty rad quest design too). i think that if it's an opportunity and not a necessity, it's a lot easier on the player

somehow minecraft is really good about making mining decently enjoyable even though it's one of the most repetitive things ever. i guess because there's an exploration aspect that's pretty interesting there. gameplay is always going to be somehow repetitive, so you have to have some other variables to tweak and mess around with to make it work. if all you're doing is standing over a rock with your mouse button down i guess that's when it gets tedious

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[Shift Kitty]

Resource gathering and crafting isn't inherently a bad idea.
Now, because otto-san seems to bring up Minecraft as an example, I'm gonna too.

Minecraft doesn't have you craft 50 wooden swords before you can craft a stone one. It doesn't have you craft 100 stone swords to make an iron one. etc.
Instead, it gates it through, somewhat meaningful but sadly very short-lived progression. You do not need anything wooden but a pickaxe, because you need the wooden pickaxe to get stone. You need stone to get iron, and to make the iron into something useful as well. You need iron to get diamonds.
Not saying you should need tier 1 to obtain tier 2, and that to get tier 3. There should certainly be some sort of method of progressing in how you gather and craft. But smashing a certain number of one kind of rock shouldn't be how you figure out how to smash another kind of rock.

I think where other sandbox games like minecraft, terraria, etc get it right is that you're not just progressing your player. You're also upgrading your home. We have a sandbox game here. We should follow up on that.

[otto-san]

yeah i think agree with shift kirby

also in reality, vanilla minecraft's crafting is secretly just a vehicle for the material gathering part of the game. part of the reason why i love modded minecraft so much is that there are a lot more things that you can focus on and a lot more goals that you can pick out, and progressing has the very real benefit of changing the gameplay over time. eventually you might not even have to mine, you'll be focused on different goals that require different sets of tasks. it really does become a different kind of game.

[honytawk]

An easy way to make the grinding better is to increase the speed to level up.
A lot of RPGs think they need 100+ hours of content and all their players have unlimited time to play on their server.
And instead of adding tons of content to get to those 100 hours, they make progression slower.

If your RPG only takes 2 hours to get to end level, but it was an enjoyable 2 hours, then it is a very good RPG.

There will always be those who grind like there is no tomorrow and enjoy it, but don't focus your build on those kinds of players.


An other way is of course to no put any grinding elements in.
I'd like to take my own Pokemon RPG as an example. shameless promotion
The only element in that RPG that may be considered 'grindy' is the walking distance between towns since it is a pretty big map.
But since you encounter a bot trainer every 100 of meters, it breaks up the monotony.
I also added a couple of upgrades to make walking faster: a buyable bike, riding your flying pokemon and buying consumable teleport tickets.

I even had to implement a grind option because of the grind-loving players.

It also has gated content, like what is described above with the Minecraft brown townogy.
You have to get a certain typed pokemon and buy their HM to be able to cut a tree, move boulders, fly over things, ... to get to the other towns.
Since I knew no trainer would have all types, I had to make sure every town is accessible with more than one HM.

[elm]

ITT, everyone is a professional RPG brown townyst.

[otto-san]

ITT, everyone is a professional RPG brown townyst.

lol you don't have to be an expert on something to talk about it

anyone that consumes media can have an opinion about it that can be rationalized

[Shift Kitty]

ITT, everyone is a professional RPG brown townyst.

I know it's like we... know what we'd find fun in an RPG.

[Ravencroft·]

ITT, everyone is a professional RPG brown townyst.

You could learn something from what we're saying.

[JBlitz404]

The best RPG is an RPG that has variety and feels unique. Every task you take is a new situation. Every action you commit doesn't feel the same like the previous one. Every area you explore doesn't feel similar to the one before or after. Every enemy you fight doesn't just look the same or move the same. Every resource you might collect isn't just a carbon copy with a different name. A perfect RPG is one that offers the following:

•Minimal grinding -as in no task feels the same just to get to the top
•A variety of content - as in every task you commit feels different/unique from the previous one
•An interesting story-line or lore - as in the player knows what they're doing and why they are doing this
•No forced competitiveness - as in no player is suddenly king just because they were on the game for about 15 hours straight
•Breath-taking scenery - as in a landscape that immerses the player into a fictional world
•Perfect, rewarding end-game content - as in content that awards the player for completing the main game, but content that does not feel shallow, repetitive, or give extreme strength for no reason

Every RPG created on Blockland seems to get one or two of these, but NOT ALL. Right now, it's just constant trial and error. Instead of focusing on one thing, focus on multiple things. Don't stress yourself to provide the best, but push yourself to cover the best. Any RPG that gets any of those offerings is a perfect A in my book.

[Shift Kitty]

Minimal grinding is not a requirement. Believe it or not, there will always be an end-game. You most certainly don't want people to get there overnight.
Just need to add meaningful gameplay and goals throughout the grind. Using DRPG as an example of what not to do. You were practically grinding for the sake of grinding. Just to hit those 100s. Are those 100s inherently bad idea? Of course not. It was just the only thing to work towards. Sure, there were nation perks, but money was practically passive anyway. You'll afford them all just by grinding your crafting skills, or by farming.

[JBlitz404]

Minimal grinding is not a requirement. Believe it or not, there will always be an end-game. You most certainly don't want people to get there overnight.
Just need to add meaningful gameplay and goals throughout the grind. Using DRPG as an example of what not to do. You were practically grinding for the sake of grinding. Just to hit those 100s. Are those 100s inherently bad idea? Of course not. It was just the only thing to work towards. Sure, there were nation perks, but money was practically passive anyway. You'll afford them all just by grinding your crafting skills, or by farming.

This is actually pretty true. Regardless though, don't make players grind just for the sake of grinding. If there is no point, why waste time?

[lordician]

I totally get what you're going for lordician.
There's a couple of problems with that, though.
Scenario A: Players store their own progression. This allows them to bring their character into any server.
Problem A: Players are willing and able to cheat. Maxing out their character, or even stronger than max if not handled carefully.

Scenario B: Servers store players' progression, transferable.
Problem B: Same problem with scenario A. A player could easily just host their own server, call some commands or run edited scripts to instantly reach max stats.

Scenario C: Servers store players' progression, non-transferable.
Problem C: Players would have to start over each time they joined a different server. They could potentially lose interest in trying to progress at all.

Scenario D: No progression/no saving progression.
Problem D: This isn't very RPG-like at all and is pretty much just adventure mode. Not that this is a problem.

I have been thinking about this problem and while yes, it poses a problem, but same goes for games like Terraria and the such.
You are allowed to make your own character in your own world and can join your friend's server with the same character.
While yes, you can cheat, you are mostly playing with friends.
And if you play publicly, in small groups it is easier to manage this misbehaviour.
Oh and PVP will be a lot less on the foreground in small group focus scenario, so having the best gear and such does not do much.
Nevertheless, well spotted problem, which can indeed be solved in multiple ways, but with less then desirable outcomes of hence solutions.

Text

I should have elaborated on my point about grinding.
Yes, i know grinding is done to space out content.
I am all to aware of this.
But there are multiple ways of grinding.
There is constantly doing the same thing over and over and over without too much difference in that time.
Or there is doing something over and over, but every once in a while or every time, at least a little bit different.
I think Otto-san has pretty much the same idea here about it:

Text 2: Return of the text.

To close my post off, i think we are all having a great and deep discussion about this topic and i hope this is useful to anyone. :)
Keep the ideas and thoughts flowing people!

[Jervan]

One thing that's important that hasn't been talked about but kind of hinted at is novelty. I feel like RPGs should focus on this a lot more. Novelty is enjoying the little things and making the RPG a fun place to be a part of. It should be fun to stop whatever you're striving for and enjoy the scenery a little bit. If you're in the wild you should be able to do whatever you'd want to do in the wild in the setting if you could. That could be hunting, scavenging or hiding from the government - it all depends on your setting. The big issue being brought up a lot via words like "grind" and "end-game" is that RPGs have focused too much on statistics. Statistics are important for a feeling of progression, yes, but they shouldn't be the only feeling of progression available - your story should develop on its own.

The first things that I've really started working on in my own RPG (after the game-world) is reasons for players to interact with each other. A lot of RPGs I've seen, players have been scattered across the world all working on different things (usually bettering their stats or gear). I think it's important that a server provides a clear goal for all the players (whether it's cooperatively or competitively) as well as a definitive threat to those goals being completed. If you have that, the last thing in your mind will be the statistics assigned to your player.

This thread has been really helpful, I'm going to think a lot about what people have said while I'm designing my server and I'll probably read it many times over in the future - so thanks!

[Shift Kitty]

Interaction and impact with the environment helps as well. Gives the player a sense of accomplishment, as well as being more immersed. Whether it be players permanently impacting the world itself, or the world coming down on the player(s), specifically.
That's the thing with current RPGs. You killed a player, you got experience, they respawn. You chopped a tree, you got experience, wood, and it will respawn. The player can go through their daily routine and nothing will ever go wrong or change. Everything is predictable and there's not one eventful experience. The players in current RPGs have zero impact on the world. The world is only increasing the player's numbers. The players theoretically don't even exist in the world.
You could have some either randomly generated or predefined events that have some sort of very obscure trigger. And maybe that thing only affects specific players for some reason. Like a group of strange hunters are tracking down a certain clan of players because they're in possession of some unique item. A certain group of players depleted one of the forests and thus, there's no forest animals/monsters to be seen in the area anymore. Hell, even just, randomly obtained very rare consumable items that change a slight variable or feature in the world permanently. Or even just the ability to build something and have that actually mean something.

There should also be reasons for players to be working together as well. Players seem to just be off worrying about their own progress and that's about it. Sure, they'll party together in certain RPGs, but that's still only because of their own personal progression. Even in DRPG, sure, you had nations. You donate to them for perks. And even that was more interaction towards something permanent in the world compared to other RPGs. But in the end, those perks were being donated towards because it gave players more personal progression. There should be a reason players work together and totally not just so they can level up faster.

[otto-san]

you also have to consider the fact that people aren't going to want to join up with strangers from the start. there's definitely a kind of social curve to online RPGs that you gotta look at. things like auction houses, guilds, etc. are all things that players aren't going to feel comfortable with immediately; they have to be eased into the social environment of the game. i don't think this is as much of a challenge in blockland because servers are so small, but it's definitely something to think about

ultimately, people group up because it's beneficial to them though (or because they want to play with their friends). it helps them accomplish their goals more effectively. they don't form because of esoteric group-benefit reasons, they're in it for their own game. EXP boosts are a pretty boring way to do it, but they're not a bad idea for larger-scale guild-like coalitions. if you can mobilize a large faction of your player base to help each other, that's some pretty valuable player interaction.