Author Topic: DLC is getting ridiculous - The rant  (Read 19148 times)

Imagine old games if this DLC were in them. Im using the 3 star control games as an example.

Star Control 1: Pay 0,99$ for a Starbase! Pay 10$ for the map editor! Pay 20$ for the Ur-Quan Dreadnought!

Star Control 2: Pay 20$ for the Syreens! Pay 0.99$ for an extra year before the death march! Pay 0.99$(GREAT VALUE!) to be able to construct Marauders in the starbase!

Star Control 3: Pay 1.99$ to instantly fill up the sentience silo! Pay 2.99$ to translate the Daktaklakpak!

DLC is not "getting ridiculous". Thank you to Timestamp for posting my quote, and let me just make it clear one more time.

Games are expensive.

Don't use indie developers as a shield to hide behind, since the majority of indie developers fail due to their financial situation, as with a lot of start-up businesses. AAA Development is about playing massive risks, and so it's absolutely crucial that they find safe ways to offset that risk by increasing their possible return.

Don't use "old games didn't need DLC" as an excuse. Games have to progress forward and change, because with every new game, consumers expectations change. You also have to factor in that the economy has been in decline since the 90s, and the games market isn't as tight and small as it once was. We're now facing a new era of oversaturation and loss of confidence from the mainstream market, and it doesn't help that the mobile market exists to sap a lot of the profit that once could have gone to the big console game studios.

No studio wants to release a broken product, but the unfortunate reality is that if you keep letting timelines slip because of X problem, the game never comes out or people lose interest in the product. This is basic software development. Every forgetin' programmer in the world knows that at some point they'll have to ship it, regardless of how many bugs are left in the system. The thing is that systems are so complicated these days in comparison to ye olde games, that of course they're going to have a gigantic number of bugs and glitches.

Did you know that in the 80s and 90s, bugs were actually used as selling points in the manual and promotional material? That's right, companies then were trying to pawn off broken products on you, since they would develop, send the product to the publishing stage and THEN test after it had been copied to cartridge or whatever medium. And unlike now, there was no way to update games once they were on the medium.

Don't bitch and moan about Xbox Live. Microsoft have to offer servers, moderators and also have deals with companies like Netflix and so forth, all of which need to be paid for. XBL is one of the most expensive active operations Microsoft offers, and the only way to offset the costs is to turn it into a subscription service.

The OP clearly doesn't understand anything about basic business logic or the way our world is constantly changing. Believe me, without DLC, the gaming market would be a much different, much scarier, crappier place.
I found this very informative. Aren't you like a PR rep at Ubisoft or something?

Don't bitch and moan about Xbox Live. Microsoft have to offer servers, moderators and also have deals with companies like Netflix and so forth, all of which need to be paid for. XBL is one of the most expensive active operations Microsoft offers, and the only way to offset the costs is to turn it into a subscription service.
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but nintendo and sony(in the ps3 era) have similar services but without subscriptions

Aren't you like a PR rep at Ubisoft or something?
I was a Ubisoft PR contractor, but this year they didn't offer any contracts due to the much smaller variety of games and so they could handle the PR work internally with their small team.

People think this makes me "biased". No. What makes me biased is that I like only a small amount of indie games (because 90% is just generic, rip-off trash), and I've met a lot more cunts in the indie industry than I have in the AAA industry.

but nintendo and sony(in the ps3 era) have similar services but without subscriptions
Nintendo is an interesting case study because they've been suffering economic blows for the past couple years after the giant high that the original Wii and DS brought them. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about their platform or services to give you an answer there.

Sony couldn't afford to force a paid online service, because Microsoft was crushing them after the disastrous 2006 E3 Presentation, and it took years to build up a reputation. Keep in mind, though, PS Plus (their premium subscription service) started in 2010. Furthermore, Sony owns a lot more of the entertainment industry than Microsoft, so they wouldn't need to make as many licensing deals. Sony also offered less services (nothing even close to the Xbox Party Chat system, as far as I remember).

People think this makes me "biased".
I meant it in the sense that you "know your stuff". It's a professional relationship anyway. There are a lot of very entitled people in the gaming community who knee jerk about having to pay more money for games without actually knowing anything about how the industry works. Jim Sterling tried to imply in one of his videos that Square Enix is totes NSA spying on you because Mankind Divided records your inputs (possibly for detecting bugs & other issues + researching how players play games without having to fill out surveys). He gets the same amount of money a doctor would by being an ignorant turd.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 07:42:38 AM by Rednakin »

Destiny on PS4/PS3 is pretty bad in this context, they released the base game which you pay 60 dollars for to get everything the game was shipped with, though it turned out they already had their next two expansions in the game already, they just held back the content as dlc expansions which costed 20 dollars for each (so 60 + 20 + 20) and then add on the fact that in order to be in a party with your friends or do the high level missions/raids you need Playstation Plus too. (60 + 20 + 20 + PS Plus membership cost).

THEN they actually released a larger expansion of new content which still was fairly short, but it required you to own the previous two expansions to buy it and it costed 40 dollars aswell. (60 + 20 + 20 + 40 + PS Plus)

THEN they added microtransactions for stuff like emotes and such which im not going to add onto the cost here but they still exist so if you wanna blow more money on this game then theres that.

and just recently they released yet another expansion which costs 30 dollars so that brings us to a total of:

$170 dollars not including PlayStation plus membership

like the game is fun to me, but jesus christ.

(this post kind of runs alongside 99% of what McJob said)

You guys ought to read this blog post Creative Assembly wrote regarding day one DLC and DLC in general.

I put it in big letters so people won't glance over this and not read it, because honestly it's a very critical insight into why these kinds of things exist.  In particular, near the middle of the post.

Context:  Creative Assembly is weeks away from releasing their biggest, most expensive Total War game yet, Total War: Warhammer.  Most expensive because not only are they doing huge technical work (64-bit, hired AMD to help w/ DX12), they're doing an entire universe of new assets (textures, models, sounds, music, etc.), PLUS it's not even their intellectual property (Warhammer is owned by Games Workshop and both parties made a deal to make a kickass game) so they had to pay for that.  The game's coming with 4 of the many races in the setting, humans orks dwarves and vampies, and then Chaos Warriors (arguably the main antagonists) are announced as pre-order bonus/day 1 DLC.  CA goes on to explain why it's so in a blog post to the community because they're probably so loving tired of getting yelled at by the community (read:  Rome 2 release and its day 1 DLC) and just want their customers to be happy.

tl;dr:  People got pissed that one of the main antagonists of Warhammer was made Day 1 DLC, CA does damage control and gives transparency on their side of the story.

Quote
Now I'm going to massively oversimplify this, but here's the problem…

A full game’s-worth of development resources (time, money, people) can only support a certain amount of content. In this case it works out as four playable races. There’s so much depth, breadth and variety in them, these races really are a huge investment to make above the factions of previous games.

DLCs also support a certain amount of content, less than a main game of course but big enough to add more playable races, or add extra stuff to existing races in the case of smaller DLCs.

Additionally, DLC's that come out in the first 6 months get even more resources (as they will sell a lot more), and a good value pre-order incentive increases sales of the main game, allowing yet more content to be added into the main game.
And we try and over-deliver; because we’re making the game we want to play.
To release DLC within that 6 months after release, we have to start on it well before the game is finished. It’s outside the scope and budget of the main game, but it’s developed in parallel. We hired a whole extra team to do this because in total it's almost as much work as the original game.

If we were to add this extra content to the main game, we’d be operating at a loss, which we wouldn’t do.

So in TW: Warhammer’s case, we had our four main playable races sorted, and we’ve planned for Chaos to have a big role to play later in the trilogy. But we really wanted Chaos Warriors in the main game, even without DLC – to give a big, bad end of game "boss" enemy Race for all players. But we couldn’t do that within the resources for the main game. So we added it as the pre-order incentive that also gets sold on day one – making Chaos Warriors fully playable but also giving us the extra resources to add them as an Ai race for everyone.

tl;dr above:  They're given X money to make X, but to make Y that they really want to do they have to get funding for Y from the publisher and not have it at a loss in order to offset the cost of making it (because no matter how easy you think development is, whether artistic or technical, it still costs money).

"How expensive is development really??  They just want our money!!"

From http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/221533/Game_Developer_Salary_Survey_2014_The_results_are_in.php:

Quote
In 2013, salaried game developers in the U.S. made an average of $83,060 last year, down 2 percent from the year prior.

...

Business and management: $101,572 // "corporate" of the company, essentially.  Executives, managers, HR, PR, etc.
Audio professionals: $95,682 // building your own sound effects and music isn't cheap
Programmers: $93,251 // QUALITY programmers aren't cheap, and in the game industry you need to be quality (check any job listing for a mid-high level developer e.g. Bethesda, CA, etc.)
Artists and animators: $74,349 // art degrees pay off here finally, but mostly 3D/technical art
Producers: $82,286 // moreso of the project managers
Game designers: $73,864 // someone needs to come up with the game, balancing, and more
Quality Assurance: $54,833 // and someone needs to test it

Now imagine there's teams of tens of these workers, plus in many cases the company has tons of nice things to offer their employees like overtime, amenities, retreats, etc.  Games are flat out expensive to make period, and publishers (who may or may not know their richard from a screw in a computer case) see games as a huge risk every time unless they absolutely know and trust the developer like a life long friend to make a quality game.

"Why are indie games usually so cheap?"

Quote
Non-salaried solo independent game developers made an average of $11,812 (down 49 percent year-on-year) last year, while individual members of an indie team made an average of $50,833 (up 161 percent). (These averages do not take into account indies who made less than $10,000, or over $200,000.)

Probably because they're literally starving (possibly both food and financially) and will take as many customers as they can.  If a game is super cheap and seems kinda fun, why not get it right?  That's the logic of Steam Sales in a nutshell.  Hell I bought Darksiders 2 Deathfinitive Edition just because it was $6.70 on GMG, only because I loved the game + wanted a slightly more polished version to replay with all DLC + wanted to show my support for a bankrupt developer, but I never would have bought it for any more than that (sorry this isn't an indie example but this follows the same principle more or less).

"What risk is there in developing Z for the game?"

That depends ultimately on two things:  how important that is to the customers (which is hard to predict in most cases) versus how well you actually make it.  For CA this means putting in 200% to their paid DLCs to make them at least worth it for most people.  With every paid DLC for TW:W, they've gone above and beyond just making new models, animations, and etc.  They add more varied quests and challenges to new factions and etc. to make them different and have a unique playstyle like each of the base game factions already do.  On top of that, they also release freeLC here and there and alongside paid DLC.  In many people's eyes (at least on /r/totalwar), CA is doing mostly right with their method of making DLC.



Now of course this doesn't speak for every other developer out there.  Let's look at EAXIS (modern Maxis, post Simcity 4 because everything after that was loving trash) and their "bundle packs" for the Sims.



Yeah that's pretty stuffty, I agree I'm not gonna lie, but more specifically I think it's stuffty of just how much they've put into Sims 3 and then moved on to Sims 4 anyway, but that's just money whoring.  Let's step back and consider the market demographic for the Sims though (and we're only going to talk Sims 3 here, see the last sentence re: Sims 4).  In a very general sense and just as a very rough yet semi-educated guess, the type of people mostly playing the Sims are younger players and those who want to do all sorts of cool stuff in the Sims.  And of course the developer teams in EAXIS working on these require wage to do their job of making these bundles for customers that want to keep playing the game with new content.  So they put a pricetag on that.

It's simple financial in/out.  Developers do need money, now maybe the true cost to even-out would be around $10-12 depending on the volume sold of all bundle packs but realistically the publisher wants to maintain a profit if it can, so the price is around $20 which for a kid with an allowance or anyone with a medium-rate income is not that bad of a pricetag depending on how much stuff is in those packs (I'm assuming a fair amount is in those packs, nothing unreasonable).  Even more, some of these probably add functionality alongside new assets (pets, seasons, etc.).  You could argue that these deserve to be in the main game, but I'll just point you to the part of the post above about getting a finite budget from the publisher and having to make a plan to develop more stuff with an extra cost.

Lots of the big name AAA games that are on a "copy/polish/paste" cycle a la Call of Duty and Battlefield 4, because they know that people will see the super cool dubstep-laced first look trailer for any of those games that all of the customer's friends play and jerk off to and will buy it and buy its DLCs down the road.  Hell they know I'm going to be buying Battlefield 1 because all my friends are too and it does look super cool but boy I'll be forgeted if it does suck.  My friends and I almost fell into the pitfall of Battlefront until we played the beta and realized how devoid it was of any depth early on.



tl;dr:  Software is expensive to make, way more than it was 20 years ago.