Author Topic: refugees in sweden are magically """"comatose"""" when informed of deportation  (Read 6683 times)

The best thing to do is to come to a good understanding of the phenomenon and then act on it. I don't know what Sweden's policy is on deporting migrants with sick or comatose children is but I'd imagine it makes the whole process a hell of a lot more difficult.

I guess.
I don't think I've been exposed to these things any less than you have, but I don't have the same kind of callous attitude towards it. This sounds like a you problem.
We have some differing definitions of the word 'sympathy'.

I sympathize with the homeless man on the street, doesn't mean I'm going to give him money. I don't feel the need to act on my sympathetic feelings. Doesn't make me any less sympathetic, just means I have different priorities than what you feel I should.
And it's not a me "problem".

I sympathize with the homeless man on the street, doesn't mean I'm going to give him money. I don't feel the need to act on my sympathetic feelings.
Yeah but you also don't go on the forums and make fun of the homeless man either. Nobody's asking you to uproot yourself and become a humanitarian worker, just don't split on people with stufftier lives than you.

they're from formerly soviet countries though

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden#Country_of_origin_for_persons_born_abroad

adding together all the former soviet SSRs in the top 30 here you come up around roughly 140k, if you're generous you can assume the other scraps bring it to 200k

syria and iraq alone are nearly 300k, and the rest of the north african/middle eastern countries add about another 200k (though its probably fair to say ethiopia shouldnt count)

should be noted that kosovo is about 95% muslim, which is apparently where the two girls in the second archive are from

Yeah but you also don't go on the forums and make fun of the homeless man either. Nobody's asking you to uproot yourself and become a humanitarian worker, just don't split on people with stufftier lives than you.

How am I spitting on people with stufftier lives than me

they're from formerly soviet countries though

i will admit that i assumed they were a part of the migrant wave

seems i've become jaded in the last 2 years
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 09:42:13 PM by Juncoph »

Yeah but you also don't go on the forums and make fun of the homeless man either. Nobody's asking you to uproot yourself and become a humanitarian worker, just don't split on people with stufftier lives than you.
Speaking strictly in terms of America here: Most homeless people/panhandlers are homeless by choice you know. It's incredibly easy to make money just standing on the street pretending to be homeless. Many people that do it for a living make up to 50 or more dollars a day. They stay out there because the money's good, and they'd rather live off that than go to a homeless shelter and have to go through the long process of trying to earn their own living. Easier to just beg and get money for free and eat/drink whatever they want with little consequence.

It's a highly profitable method of getting money, and often done fraudulently.

And before you say i'm making this up, yes, this is a very real and very common thing:
http://www.fox19.com/story/18610481/aurora-homeless-shelter-director-says-cardboard-panhandling-is-scam
http://www.lowellsun.com/news/ci_29777946/homeless-signs-say-scam-many-cry
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4534812/Virginia-woman-fake-homeless-video-arrested.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbcDdPsQeMA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWdoGtdN_7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CynYgP8PcWc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdpnEac1cCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq2YWdbCtO8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOfPgezVn3M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyKiQm-yUwk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seUmRXn_1qY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t23jkt9OQRs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zoTlWdFKXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBDCPDqdH-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXBNHZrbuXE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-gv6SldTr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUAe1FYeHAU

I would never give money to a homeless person on the streets, (1) because they have easy access to homeless shelters in 99% of situations and (2) because they're most likely scammers/not really homeless. I have no compassion or sympathy for them.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 09:10:17 PM by Planr »

-snip-

I've seen enough "homeless" people with fresh, clean clothes outside my local McDonalds to know better. Hell, I saw this one guy with his god damn collar pressed and ironed better than mine. The forget dude

Speaking strictly in terms of America here: Most homeless people/panhandlers are homeless by choice you know. It's incredibly easy to make money just standing on the street pretending to be homeless. Many people that do it for a living make up to 50 or more dollars a day. They stay out there because the money's good, and they'd rather live off that than go to a homeless shelter and have to go through the long process of trying to earn their own living. Easier to just beg and get money for free and eat/drink whatever they want with little consequence.
You often say things that are bullstuff out of ignorance rather than malice, so I'll just explain why homeless people aren't choosing to be homeless in terms of numbers and facts. Take it more as helpful information rather than an 'attack' on your position.

First of all, many people who are homeless have a mental illness. 25% of homeless people suffer from a diagnosed, severe mental illness. In the general populace, it's only 6%, which means there's a clear, significant correlation between being mentally ill and being homeless. The same fact sheet I linked talks about why mental illness makes it harder for homeless people to live normal lives.

Quote
Serious mental illnesses disrupt people's ability to carry out essential aspects of daily life, such as self care and household management. Mental illnesses may also prevent people from forming and maintaining stable relationships or cause people to misinterpret others' guidance and react irrationally... As a result of these factors and the stresses of living with a mental disorder, people with mentally illnesses are much more likely to become homeless than the general population (Library Index, 2009)

Second, many people who are homeless are substance dependent. 38% of homeless people were dependent on alcohol, and 26% abused other drugs. Because they have substance addictions, it is extremely difficult for homeless people to gain stable employment and live normal lives. These addictions are usually comorbid with mental illnesses like BPD and depression, and they often take drugs as a way of self-medicating for their illness. Rehab is obviously not an option because it's prohibitively expensive.

Third, there is actual research debunking the claim that panhandlers are scam artists trying to get rich. They surveyed hundreds of people in San Francisco who were panhandling and found that 26% of them were veterans, 82% of them were homeless, 62% were disabled, 32% had drug addictions, 60% make less than $25 a day, and 94% use the money for food. These are not people trying to live the 'easy life' by begging for money. They have forgeted up lives and probably no hope of ever making it off the streets alive. That being said, they also found 44% of the panhandlers used the money for drugs/alcohol, so it is acceptable if you don't want to give them money.

In this case I can say with complete confidence that you're dead wrong.

I expected you'd probably pull up some obnoxious statistic/organization report and cite it as being the gold standard. Real experience and on-the-streets footage Annoying Oranges easily-misleading statistics drawn up in an office any day.

Homeless people who are genuinely down on their luck and drug addicts go to homeless shelters and churches to get the help they need. Fake homeless people stay on the streets and panhandle for money. It's really quite simple.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 09:45:33 PM by Planr »

In this case I can say with complete confidence that you're dead wrong. Real experience and on-the-streets footage Annoying Oranges statistics drawn up in an office any day.
So if a study showed most Christians are good people, but I say they're all tribals because I know 10 tribal Christians and can pull up Youtube videos with tribal Christians, you think that's good reasoning? You would be fine if I went on the forums and shat all over them because 'personal experience Annoying Oranges actual statistics'?

By the way, statistics are personal experiences. It's just that the person experiencing them isn't selling a narrative, talked to way more homeless people than are in the videos you linked, and wrote down what they found in great detail. It's not like scientists are just idiots in office buildings pulling numbers out of their asses. They're people surveying people in the street.

Homeless people who are genuinely down on their luck and drug addicts go to homeless shelters and churches to get the help they need. Fake homeless people stay on the streets and panhandle for money. It's really quite simple.
Homeless shelters generally only offer temporary housing, and churches (some) will give you food. That doesn't solve 99% of the problems that cause cyclical homelessness.

Also, you, being church-going person, think that they're all frauds who are exploiting other people's kindness for money. Maybe that's a reason why homeless people are less receptive to the help given by the religious? Maybe because it comes with condescension and disdain?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 09:48:36 PM by SeventhSandwich »

That depends on your definition of what a Christian is.

People surveyed on the street can easily lie. They have no reason to be honest with a reporter about what their real situation is, especially if they're scammers.

I'm not going to respond to your second point because as in your previous post you're doing little at this point other than making personal attacks.

But for the record, my church does help out homeless people. We have an active prison ministry too.

It's easy to tell the difference between a real homeless person and someone who just wants to exploit other people's generosity for money. The people who actually want to change their lives around do. They get connected to our church and are helped with getting proper clothing and a job. The people that just take the money or food and don't do anything in response other than go spend it on themselves and continue begging are the fake ones, that continue in alchoholism, crime, and panhandling to spend on more alcohol and drugs.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 09:54:54 PM by Planr »

why would you lie to some random person
it's not like they're asking anything personal, it's just a poll---not many people are genuinely malicious, being on the internet can skew your view of that
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 09:59:15 PM by Drydess »

People surveyed on the street can easily lie. They have no reason to be honest with a reporter about what their real situation is, especially if they're scammers.
Then why would many of them admit to spending their money on drugs? Why would they disclose mental illnesses? Why would they give a ton of completely unrelated details to a surveyor when they can literally just tell them to forget off? This survey is just as reliable as any other survey.

While we're at it, I randomly looked at a couple of your links. The first one is a Fox article which concludes most panhandlers are frauds because of a single quote, from some guy, saying they're frauds. One of them is a video of some creepy douche in a truck filming some homeless woman panhandling out of a gas station. The video title says that she makes $50+ a day, but there's no evidence of that in the video other than a part where he says, "yeah bro, I bet if I went hard I could get $50 a day."

This is the kind of evidence you're holding above actual surveys. Use some critical thinking friendo.

It's easy to tell the difference between a real homeless person and someone who just wants to exploit other people's generosity for money. The people who actually want to change their lives around do. They get connected to our church and are helped with getting proper clothing and a job.
Please tell me about your church's magic pill for schizophrenia and heroin addiction. I will patent it and make millions.

I'm not going to respond to your second point because as in your previous post you're doing little at this point other than making personal attacks.
It's not a personal attack, it's an example of why your form of anecdotal reasoning can be used by other people to perpetuate lies about your religious group. Obviously I don't think Christians are tribals.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 09:57:39 PM by SeventhSandwich »

I hate to be mean about this, but the stuff you're writing here is a testament (no pun intended) to why a lot of Church philanthropy is bullstuff that does nothing. You are not concerned with the actual reasons why homeless people are messed up. You don't care about understanding why they end up in their place and what can actually be done to help. You are only concerned with painting this picture that religion is the only solution to everyone's problems, and so you blanket-generalize all homeless people as scam artists and bad people, except (conveniently) the ones who your church has miraculously turned around. This narrative does nothing but hurt the people you're supposed to help.

If you want to actually help people, look into effective altruism. It's philanthropy that's informed by the real reasons why people have screwed up lives, and it actually changes the world for the better. Effective altruism is the reason why an atheist computer-nerd billionaire runs the most successful and helpful charitable organization, not the Pope or the Church.

If you want to actually help people, look into effective altruism. It's philanthropy that's informed by the real reasons why people have screwed up lives, and it actually changes the world for the better. Effective altruism is the reason why an atheist computer-nerd billionaire runs the most successful and helpful charitable organization, not the Pope or the Church.
the thing about this is the same problem as with capitalism: those with the power and money to do a selfless act are most likely not going to, considering that you almost need to exploit or disadvantage others in order to get there