Hey guys is anyone still in Iraq?

[Reactor Worker]

Purpose for being Iraq - the definition of capriciousness

1. Avenge 9/11
2. Find/remove WMD's
3. Find Osama Bin Laden
4. Find/topple Suddam Hussein and his dicatorship
5. Establish Peace
6. Establish a stable democratic society.

This war is unjustifiable because it lacks a clear and defined purpose, and hence lacks a clear and defined end.

WW2 was about preventing Germany from conquering the world and the end goal was to defeat Riddler and the national socialist party. It had an ending because the goal was achievable. Instilling a preferred sense of idealism in a foreign populace is a vague, ill-defined and ultimately futile endeavor.  The American government has been wasting lives and wasting money.

Their decisions were, and continue to be shortsighted and ill-informed. You can kill as many insurgents as you like...you are only creating more in doing so.

On the subject of the Vietnam war: Moral and political reasons aside, the war was a strategic impossibility. America faced an entire nation of people who knew the terrain and the environment extremely well, were well dug-in and believed beyond a shred of a doubt that the armies approaching them brought slavery, ravishment and death. There was no clear head to cut-off, no supply lines to shatter, no single weakness to exploit. It was the largest guerrilla army ever in existence. Only a fool would enter a situation like that. Again, wasted lives, wasted years, wasted money.

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[Muffinmix]

^^^ Yup, that's pretty much it right there. And yet, in this war, we continue to waste our time over there because again this is Guerilla warfare we're dealing with. It is extremely difficult to win when an enemy is using a defense tactic like this.

Its obvious bind laden is hiding in a cave. Lets just fire TOW missles into each cave, use bunker busters.

I'm sorry, but the US doesn't have enough billions of dollars to afford anymore high powered munitions at the moment, they're kind of 1.3+ trillion dollars in debt so hmm


Now let me divert your attention for a bit, why the forget did everyone suddenly decide Iraq was the biggest threat for apparently no reason? What about the clearly stronger Iran and even stronger North Korea? They're also on the so called Axis of Evil, and they probably, if not definitely have the resources and technology available to produce or acquire nukes.

Why the forget did we pick Iraq?

[Reactor Worker]

Many other nations are also starting or expanding existing nuclear programs; India for example.

The danger doesn't lie in the nations having the ability to fire nukes at other countries...but rather in the process or refining and storing the created munitions which, in many cases, are not adequately protected from the interests of extremist groups across the globe.

Thanks to MAD, no sane nation would actually use it's nuclear weapons, but radical groups whose personal beliefs conflict with mainstream society present a significant threat.

That being said...the presence of a extremist organization is a country does not warrant the occupation/liberation/domination of said country. No sensible person would say we should invade India, but it too has it's own dangerous factions. I don't see why Iraq should be treated any differently.

It is from these assumptions that we raise questions about the validity of the Iraq war and the motivations behind starting it.

[slackerguy]

Vietnam wasn't our fault because we sent soldiers in and they got killed? What?



We've pissed off way too many people for them to ever accept us.

fine ill add a bit more detail to that "they were people sent to help the poor people of Vietnam" or something like that, i know they weren't soldiers at that. this is going to turn out like Nam.     Nam:we got pissed attacked and failed    Iraq:9/11 got pissed,attacked and now were neck deep in stuff.

[n0cturni]

We are well over 1.3 trillion dollars in debt.

[Reactor Worker]

$10 Trillion actually....

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Guess who is mostly to blame?   

[DrMobius]

Bush, for sucking at his job, us for being so wasteful, the corperations for being greedy starfishs and throwing our money at China, and OPEC for crushing us with oil prices.  I assume that this covers a good ammount of it.

[Harm94]

There other contries fighting bin laden you know.

[Muffinmix]

Oh oh I learned something interesting today guys, you know how the US keeps trying to throw in that Iraq is somehow linked to 9/11?

Well, as many know, around 3000 died, 6000 were injured on that terrible day. Well, so far over 4000 US soldiers have died in Iraq, more then 30000 wounded. These are only from the US side, not counting other coalition soldiers or Collateral Damage (Iraqi civilian deaths due to bombing mostly).


So far, the Coalition made up of the US and UK among others went in Iraq and captured/hanged Saddam. Ok cool, he was a pretty nasty guy anyways so whatever. The way the attack was conducted wasn't too moral, a few thousand civilians died and important edifices like Hospitals and Schools were also taken out due to Collateral Damage. But then, why the forget are they still there? Maybe they're making the place "safer" for the civilians or something, if you buy that. Ok whatever you know? Morality is bullstuff in POLITICS so let's look at the Realist, non sissy point of view.

Let's kick out the entire Morality deal here and think for a second. What in the world could the US gain from going against the UN, throwing it's own reputation as one of the greatest protectors of the weak down the toilet, and invading a small weakened country? No I mean it, I just want to know why the forget they even went in at this point. What National Interest can they possibly have there that's so loving valuable?

And don't tell me it's because they couldn't find MWDs, Saddam was complying completely with the inspectors before the war because the UN was threatening to come in and kick his ass. Sure the inspectors found a few atrocities here and there, nerve gasses mostly since they're easy-peasy to make, but before their full inspection of the entire loving country and all the caves could be finished the US fired the lead investigator and invaded the place.

Now, here's the juicy part. Facing imminent economic meltdown THE US STILL HASN'T WITHDRAWN IT'S FORCES. At this point I'm just starting to think the Bush Administrative is the most shortsighted pants on head handicapped bunch to ever grace the White House. Or maybe by the time the US implodes they'll be in Iraq selling that fancy oil they had everyone work so hard for (Oops top secret). I mean seriously, what else have they done? Oh right right, where was the support in the Katrina disaster, yeah thanks allot Bush for "sending help" and then retracting that help because some resistance guy/"terrorist" fire at a tank in Iraq or whatever the forget you go on about.

I'm sorry, it's just loving hilarious when I think about all the stuff that's happened and how it's flown under almost everyone's radar. Bush isn't even loving trying to do anything to persuade anyone and he managed it. Tony Blair actually had a loving speech to convince the UK to jump into the Iraq War Self Delete express, all Bush said was "Yeah let's go kick his ass!". It's kind of sad actually.

[Reactor Worker]

Bush, for sucking at his job, us for being so wasteful, the corperations for being greedy starfishs and throwing our money at China, and OPEC for crushing us with oil prices.  I assume that this covers a good ammount of it.

Actually, most of it is rampant military spending and excessive tax cuts. You can't have medicaid, medicare, and social security programs without people actually paying their taxes.

You may like it when Bush or McCain barks of his great plan for tax cuts....but really he is just hurting you, your family and many others.

Just so as to not appear to one-sided, I don't approve of all of Obama's planned expenditures either. The nation must live within it's means and pay back the debts it owes.

@muffinmix...yep, pretty much.

@harm94 ... Don't try to jump in unless you have an informed opinion and a logical argument please.

[Azerath]

1. Avenge 9/11 - Don't make me laugh.
2. Find/remove WMD's - None, period.
3. Find Osama Bin Laden - No one even cares. It's not like people say, "The search for Osama continues!" on the news. Nothing in papers, no one ever talks about it.
4. Find/topple Suddam Hussein and his dicatorship - He's dead
5. Establish Peace - You just made me laugh.
6. Establish a stable democratic society. - Hah. It'd be easier to make every fat US citizen get skinny.

Old definition, much?

[Reactor Worker]

Congratulations Azerath on completely missing the sarcasm in that post, and missing the title above it, and neglecting to read all my other posts in this topic bashing this war and it's "point".

The list I assembled was not meant to prove that the war was justified...it was meant to prove the exact opposite; that the goal in Iraq has changed so many times over the years that it clearly lacks a defined, achievable purpose.

Try reading some of the other posts I have made in this thread first. Kthx.

[Muffinmix]

The war in Iraq also breaks almost all the rules needed for a war to be considered Just, layed down by the Just War Theory.

And, a Just War needs to satisfy ALL the conditions, not just a few conditions, even though those conditions aren't really justified to begin with. The Goal of the war is so unclear that we can't really say that the Just Cause condition is met in any way, as pointed out by Reactor here ^^^

So this war isn't Just, and it's painfully obvious that all the reasons the US were throwing at people to go to war were simply Rhetorical measures, that is, propaganda.

But what is their real goal at this point? We can say it was Oil, but for the massive amount of ressources and money wasted over there can Oil even be worth it at all at this point? Maybe they're still trying to secure the reserves to compensate for the costs? But then if the UN catches whiff that the US is in fact simply stealing that oil and decide to send in inspectors at this point the US might very well be in even deeper stuff.

[Otis Da HousKat]

My senior English teacher was just a twinge anti-government, he always went on about the cover-ups and conspiracies. While we were reading 1984 (one of his favorites obviously) he asked us some questions to tie in the book to real life. One of those questions was who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

Most of the students said Saddam Hussein was the mastermind behind them.

I was disgusted.

[Muffinmix]

Most of the students said Saddam Hussein was the mastermind behind them.

I was disgusted.

This is why we need better educational systems. We need to keep the loving propaganda out, make it so the kids have a brain when they step out of school, give them a mind of their own and let them question rationally what it is they should believe and do.

The lack of care and planning put into the US and Canadian school systems disgust me. You guys deserve way better then this. No idea about the countries across the pond but they deserve nothing but the utmost best as well.