Poll

Chicken or the egg?

Chicken
Egg

Author Topic: Chicken or the egg?  (Read 5729 times)

A loving chicken. there never was some loving little monkey that turned into a loving human, if so, why the forget are there still those damn monkeys we see today? So, I beleive that the chicken laid the damn egg.

I don't think you said forget enough.


Religion, trying to rewrite history, Science laughs at them seeing as its impossible.

Religion, trying to rewrite history, Science laughs at them seeing as its impossible.
Before this topic gets about religion, there's no way to prove Christianity, it's all faith, thus people beleiving it's not real and such.

Before this topic gets about religion, there's no way to prove Christianity, it's all faith, thus people beleiving it's not real and such.

"You guys need to prove yourselves, but we don't because we were here first."

The chicken. Period

Now for those of you who say that Evolution made the egg that hatched into a chicken, can you please explain to me which version of evolution you believe in? Mutation or Natural Selection? Or something else if you can think of one. Really, I don't see how either of those work.

Evolution is the net result of generational mutations and the process of natural selection. It is a gradual process. Or better put, it is all a matter of statistics. It is unlikely that any dramatic change would occur within one, or even 10 generations, but over time certain traits (such as being slightly larger) lend one mutation a statistical advantage over it's peers. The rest is a matter of time and circumstance. The environment plays a huge role in the development of species.

It's not called "Natural Seletion", it's called genetics. Even though the physical traits of the animals change over time, it doesn't change them into another species. Dogs are a great example of this. We've had dogs for ages and they've changed, but we still have dogs. There hasn't been one documented change of one species to another. The fossil record doesn't support this either. Darwin himself wrote: "The number of intermediate varieties which have formerly existed on earth must be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain: and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."

Now, what your saying here is the survival of the fittest. But if the animals that are weaker are always dying out quickly, how do they have millions of years to evolve into something that will survive?

And for the common ancestor idea:

The presence of homologous structures can actually be interpreted as evidence for a common designer. Contrary to the oversimplified claim in this figure, the forelimbs of vertebrates do not form in the same way. Specifically, in frogs the phalanges form as buds that grow outward and in humans they form from a ridge that develops furrows inward. The fact that the bones can be correlated does not mean that they are evidence of a single common ancestor.

The way we classify species, taxonomy, is based upon a matter agreed upon by the various professionals involved. It isn't as if one day a wolf suddenly became a dog, we simply see the after effects...we see two animals which we perceive as distinctly different and give them classifications. At some point in the past there would have been two very close variations of a wolf which took different paths.

The transition of one species adapting to form a new one takes a significant amount of time. The amount of time depends on the circumstances in which the species lives and the length of time between generations. I shall repeat, it isn't an instant change and the classification of one species over an another is something to be decided on. Each breed of dog could be could be considered a separate species and the results of "mixing" two or more can invariably be seen in "mutts". Force breeding, used on many animals such as dogs, horses and cattle, is a useful example as well.

Natural selection relies on certain traits giving a member(s) of a species a statistical advantage over another, this does not imply that all the others just die off before they reproduce, invariably most manage to reproduce and this slows down the process, but over time those animals (say the larger variants) generally have a greater number of offspring and will generally pass on this trait to their offspring.

The conditions necessary for a fossil to be formed are quite unique. Not every animal that simply lies dead on the ground becomes a fossil. Again, which species do or do not experience the fossilization process is a matter of circumstance. Fortunately, there are enough intermediate "links" for us to form rough lineages of species.

I'm not really sure how you can state that similar bone structures are evidence of a single creator, but not of a common ancestor. Assuming "the lord" was/is as powerful as he is claimed to be, surely he could have used vastly different designs? laziness?

That's not evolution. That's the variation of a species. Thery're both squirls. Not much else happened to change them into anything else. Also, what makes you think that there is millions of years of time involved. Can you tell me one way in which you can prove with evidence that millions of years have happened?

There are two examples that give us a rough estimate as to the age of the earth and life on it. The first being Carbon dating. Now, before you go whipping out your ready-made book of creationist "facts", I'd like you to kindly save your "oh look at this one instance where carbon dating was wrong" for someone who is gullible enough to rely on anecdotal evidence collected by a clearly biased source.

The second piece of evidence to support the current estimate of the age of the earth is the the geographical profile of the crust. Due to shifting in the crust, it is often possible to find locations where entire cliff-faces display the geographical history of the earth. By correlating known data collected from human history (such as deposits left from eruptions that covered the globe) we can form an accurate scale to gauge the age of the earth and even pinpoint certain areas of interests. Even the ice shelves at the poles reveal similar trends.

Ever notice how everything just seems to fall inplace with evolution? I mean geeze, seroiusly "Why are monkeys here today?" "Because there where three different things that evolved" "Why don't we see the other one?" "Because it died" "What mutated them?" Etc. It's just plain nonsense, if you ask one offensive thing about evolution there's a new answer that a scientist just pulled out of his ass.

There are parallels that can be drawn between priests and scientists. The motive is the same, the search for answers, the method is vastly different.

Religion creates simple answers for people to believe in. It is slow to change and invariably tries to disprove any new knowledge acquired. It is largely based on fear; the fear of death, the fear of not having a purpose, the fear of not being the best. It does not actively search out for new answers, it simply creates it's own by loosely tying together a select group of facts and brushing aside the far great questions that are asked of it.

Science searches for answers. It doesn't instantly accept new ideas, but if the proof exists and the finder is persistent, new ideas are accepted. It is based on curiosity. It is about finding the answer, not simply creating the one that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Scientists still feel those same fears, but they do not let them dominate their work, their passion. A scientist chooses the most accurate theory over those most comfortable one. Ideas are judged based on evidence and logical inferences, not whimsical guesses.

There is some faith involved in science, if we knew for certain we wouldn't need to be looking. But to simply create the answers we want to hear is unacceptable for me, and for a significant portion of the human race.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 07:08:46 PM by Reactor Worker »


I'm a Christian.

If I wasn't ashamed to be a Christian before... I am now :|


There is no way to prove it Christianity, or disprove it. Guess we will have to wait till the end of the world.

If I wasn't ashamed to be a Christian before... I am now :|
Oh, come on.

-stuff-

Now, I know you don't like it when I whip out my "ready-made book of creationist "facts"", but I'd like you to read the rate of mutations.

Mutations are very rare. They occur on an average of perhaps once in every ten million duplications of a DNA molecule (107, a one followed by seven zeroes). That’s fairly rare. On the other hand, it’s not that rare. Our bodies contain nearly 100 trillion cells (1014). So the odds are quite good that we have a couple of cells with a mutated form of almost any gene. A test tube can hold millions of bacteria, so, again, the odds are quite good that there will be mutant forms among them.

The mathematical problem for evolution comes when you want a series of related mutations. The odds of getting two mutations that are related to one another is the product of the separate probabilities: one in 107 x 107, or 1014. That’s a one followed by 14 zeroes, a hundred trillion! Any two mutations might produce no more than a fly with a wavy edge on a bent wing. That’s a long way from producing a truly new structure, and certainly a long way from changing a fly into some new kind of organism. You need more mutations for that. So, what are the odds of getting three mutations in a row? That’s one in a billion trillion (1021). Suddenly, the ocean isn’t big enough to hold enough bacteria to make it likely for you to find a bacterium with three simultaneous or sequential related mutations.

What about trying for four related mutations? One in 1028. Suddenly, the earth isn’t big enough to hold enough organisms to make that very likely. And we’re talking about only four mutations. It would take many more than that to change a fish into a philosopher, or even a fish into a frog. Four mutations don’t even make a start toward any real evolution. But already at this point some evolutionists have given up the classic idea of evolution, because it just plainly doesn’t work.

I'll go into other points later, too lazy right now.

Hmm, perhaps we are using different definitions for "mutations". To me, variations in physical traits (height, strength, metabolism, bone structure) occur quite readily. They are not necessarily errors in the DNA, but variations all the same. These traits do seem to be passed on to their offspring a greater percentage of the time than they don't.

On a slightly different note, whenever mating occurs, you have two different sets of chromosomes coming together to form a new set, this is the foundation for genetic diversity amongst offspring.

The mutations of which you speak appear to be of the spontaneous kind, and as such have little relevance to the matter of evolution...they are outliers, not the foundation upon which the theory of evolution is built on.

Perhaps you are referring to somatic mutations?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 07:36:43 PM by Reactor Worker »

I'm Christian but I still believe in adaptation/evolution.

I'm Christian but I still believe in adaptation/evolution.
The former is a lot easier for me to accept than the latter, as a Christian.

God made all animals first, including the Chicken. I think. Then that chicken laid an egg

God made all animals first, including the Chicken. I think. Then that chicken laid an egg
High five.