Author Topic: Obama, the attention whore  (Read 9579 times)

I'm read on the New Deal. Is socialism a necessary evil?

The ends justified the means.

My bad, wrong word there.

S'alright, I get kinda fired up in most political discussions, so I should probably back off.  It's nice to have a good discussion on the internet every once in a while.

I'm read on the New Deal. Is socialism a necessary evil?

The ends justified the means.

I applaud you for actually admitting your philosophies in a political discussion.  Most people I argue with believe that the ends justify the means, but are scared to say it.

I don't think socialism is a necessary evil because I believe that there is a third choice when it comes to government of the people.  A lot of people see that it secular worldviews, it comes down to totalitarian government or anarchy.  I think that a republican when untainted by secularism can succeed as a good for the people, and not just a "necessary evil".

And in reality, FDR's ends sucked, didn't provide the result he (and Keynes) promised, and actually made the recession worse and dragged it out for longer than if he had just let capitalism work itself out.

You support Laissez-faire? Sheesh, now I feel sorry for you.

Lassiez-faire is anything but fair.

You support Laissez-faire? Sheesh, now I feel sorry for you.

What is wrong with Laissez-faire?  Capitalism is meant to work a certain way, and messing with it isn't going to do you any good.  Yes, moderate regulation is necessary, but there's certainly a line.

Do you think it's wrong because the rich get richer?  In any form of economic policy, the rich are necessary in order to keep the money flowing.  In fact, poverty rates would go down if the people did not have a hatred of the rich, and did not vote for anti-rich tax policies, etc.

lol

I have no intention to get into that debate.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 07:07:52 PM by Ronin »

lol

I have no intention to get into that debate.

Eh, now that I think about it, me neither.  Good times, good times.

What is wrong with Laissez-faire?  Capitalism is meant to work a certain way, and messing with it isn't going to do you any good.  Yes, moderate regulation is necessary, but there's certainly a line.

Do you think it's wrong because the rich get richer?  In any form of economic policy, the rich are necessary in order to keep the money flowing.  In fact, poverty rates would go down if the people did not have a hatred of the rich, and did not vote for anti-rich tax policies, etc.

Trickle Down Economics Ft....l.
Laissez cannot work. Regulation is fine and dandy, but it is not laissez-faire, it is so contradictory. With Big Business, you are no longer run by the government, you are run by Business. Look at the late 1800's and early 1900's and you will see whats wrong. Trust busting by Roosevelt and Taft were pivotal to it. The country is unable to understand the boom and bust cycle. When Roosevelt busted some businesses, a recession occurred and got people angry at him. Busting trusts won't really affect the economy, if anything it would help you with lower prices. I am no economist, so I am just speculating.

It would probably work better now then earlier, because of the more companies. But, history repeats its self and we may have monopolies causing you to pay 13$ for a loaf of bread. Look at the NIRA and the New Deal, they tried to monopolize businesses to make the economy start, and the war toke over and that went down the drain.

Trickle Down Economics Ft....l.
Laissez cannot work. Regulation is fine and dandy, but it is not laissez-faire, it is so contradictory. With Big Business, you are no longer run by the government, you are run by Business. Look at the late 1800's and early 1900's and you will see whats wrong. Trust busting by Roosevelt and Taft were pivotal to it. The country is unable to understand the boom and bust cycle. When Roosevelt busted some businesses, a recession occurred and got people angry at him. Busting trusts won't really affect the economy, if anything it would help you with lower prices. I am no economist, so I am just speculating.

It would probably work better now then earlier, because of the more companies. But, history repeats its self and we may have monopolies causing you to pay 13$ for a loaf of bread. Look at the NIRA and the New Deal, they tried to monopolize businesses to make the economy start, and the war toke over and that went down the drain.

Well, I think you are taking the idea of laissez-faire too far, almost to the point of setting up a straw man.  In reality, laissez-faire doesn't mean you give up all ideas of regulation so that business rules the country, it doesn't mean that you give up anti-monopoly regulations.  It means that you prevent business from controlling the government while you prevent the government from ruining business.

It's kinda hard to understand exactly what it is you are saying, no offense, but I also think that you are contradicting yourself in that you are against monopolies (or for them?) and against laissez-faire, but that maybe because you have a distorted view of what laissez-faire truly is.


Yes, I know I am breaking the "me neither", just give me break.

It means that you prevent business from controlling the government while you prevent the government from ruining business.

So basically the businesses can't control the government, yet the government is still very much dependent on it's countries businesses no matter what system you implement. Why? Because business drives a country and is directly linked to that country's wealth, which then correlates to how much cash the government has to play with by the end of the year. The government also can't ruin any businesses, ok that sounds fair, but then how would you interpret a business? Trade is business, so if the government gets in the way of trade then that business is destroyed. This system easily suggests the government has no control over any of the dealings in businesses, it can't interfere otherwise it's ruining business. This has also extended to potential business many times as well.


Laissez-faire is self contradictory, that's why it eventually leads to huge forget ups. It's also a system that is very open to all kinds of bad dealings which can cause major instability in a country, like say economic depressions. You say a country needs very rich people for the poor to hate, I guess the poor have a good amount of reasons to hate the rich especially since those asses managed to forget up the country twice now and all the poor are paying deeply for it.

Lassiez-faire is anything but fair.

Well, I think you are taking the idea of laissez-faire too far, almost to the point of setting up a straw man.  In reality, laissez-faire doesn't mean you give up all ideas of regulation so that business rules the country, it doesn't mean that you give up anti-monopoly regulations.  It means that you prevent business from controlling the government while you prevent the government from ruining business.

It's kinda hard to understand exactly what it is you are saying, no offense, but I also think that you are contradicting yourself in that you are against monopolies (or for them?) and against laissez-faire, but that maybe because you have a distorted view of what laissez-faire truly is.


Yes, I know I am breaking the "me neither", just give me break.

History is not black and white, I have no standpoint. I give facts and let you interrupt them. If you take a AP class in history, you will learn it is best to give both sides. L-F can work, and it cannot work, it depends on when it works. It will fail, then it wont. And yes, I contradict myself, please try to grasp the complexity of my argument.

Protective Tariffs could be considered a part of economic-government bond, while it can also not be. Depending on the time and what is needed this can change. This is just like regulation.

And your point is so moot: Regulation and Laissez-faire is possible, but it is not L-F, since L-F is French for "Let Be." Of course, over the years, the regulations have gotten stricter, and looser. Look up the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, and the Interstate Commerce Commission Act. These were both passed to regulate business, and ended up being useless until they were given teeth.

Roosevelt and Taft and Wilson and FDR and Reagen each did there own thing to the governments policy. And plus, we have an income tax, this isn't L-F, is it?

Eh, it's getting to the point were what I'm actually saying isn't mentioned, so I'm out.  Excuse yes, viewpoint conceded no.

Eh, it's getting to the point were what I'm actually saying isn't mentioned, so I'm out.  Excuse yes, viewpoint conceded no.

That is because you are wrong, and have no idea.

That is because you are wrong, and have no idea.

Yes, the straw man you set up is wrong.  However, my viewpoint on laissez faire is a lot more complex than the "standard" that you guys are really arguing against.  That's why.

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