Author Topic: Missing Link Found  (Read 18748 times)

If the world is too complex to happen by chance and a god created it, how the hell was god made? If he was just "here", why couldn't life just be "here"? If someone full of infinite wisdom and power can be created by chance or was already here, why couldn't that be the same for us or at least life?
"Life" is already there, that "life" involves heaven and angels. Please, just read the Bible for once. You'll understand it for once.

Explain that again koolkody, and we're talking about HERE not THERE.

"Life" is already there, that "life" involves heaven and angels. Please, just read the Bible for once. You'll understand it for once.
Life also involves Humans.  Some of which have just disproven your bible's belief system.

"Life" is already there, that "life" involves heaven and angels. Please, just read the Bible for once. You'll understand it for once.
So the world is so complex that it must have been created by someone, but that more complex thing/person was created by chance. That makes sense.

Quote from: TheWorm
The Earth, according to the Bible, was created in a day. This is where creationism comes from. But, wait! The sun wasn't created until the fourth day. If the sun wasn't created until the fourth day, according to the bible that is, don't you suppose maybe that first day could have been. . . hmm. . Twenty-six hours? Or how about ten million years?
The Bible implies creationism, it did not create it.

The sun doesn't determine time, it's simply an indicator.  And the first day would still have been Twenty-four hours because God would have designed the sun's gravitational pull to allow the earth to travel around it in Twenty-four hours.

Quote from: Digmaster


Everything from the "Who should we kill" to the "Justice" sections are true. But I'll explain why they aren't necessarily carried out today.
Everyone of them still holds true and should be the punishment of those who commit them. Then God sent down his son Jesus to forgive us of our sins. Why is that so significant? Before Jesus died on the cross for us, our sins were never forgiven. Everytime anyone made a burnt offering, it was to "roll-back" their sins. They would still be punished for them, and the punishment for all sin is death. It wasn't until Jesus took on all the sins that were made, have been made, and have yet to be made that we were truly forgiven and clean of our sins. He paid that price of death for us. We will still be convicted of our sins, but we won't be put to eternal death and have everlasting life.
As for the "Christ, what a role model...", the person who made this is just manipulating the Bible. I'll even point out some of the errors.
Luke 14:26 - Talks about how you cannot follow God fully without putting him first in your life. That includes your family and even yourself.
Matt 19:29 - That is only part of passage, here is the rest of it: And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for My sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. This is relating to Luke 14:26 by putting God first in your life.
Matt 10:35-6 - This is taking a portion out of what He is saying. If you read Matt 10:37-9 it says: "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Again, relating to putting God first in your life.
Matt 10:34 - Again, another snippet from the same teaching as above.
Luke 22:36 - In The Message translation it reads: He said, "This is different. Get ready for trouble. Look to what you'll need; there are difficult times ahead. Pawn your coat and get a sword. What was written in Scripture, 'He was lumped in with the criminals,' gets its final meaning in me. He is warning them about His death and the hard times to follow afterwards.
Mark 11:12-4, 20-1 - I don't see how this is a problem.
Matt 15:22-8 - Again, read farther down. He original denies the girl, but the faith of her mother changed His mind and he healed her.



The only reason the author of this said that is that he/she knows that they would never be able to uphold those commands on their own. Yes, it does say "Thou shalt not kill". This includes self-defense. Jesus did not kill the men that were taking him to the cross to be killed. He even healed one of the guards that Peter injured. As for the national socialist/Jew example, even if you do lie, as long as you ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins, you won't be punished. But it is still a sin and Jesus isn't a "Get out of Jail" card.

Quote from: Jsk2003
Random mutations happen, very very slight chance, but it is still there. If there's a 1 in a billion chance, that does mean that after a couple of billion tries, it's bound to happen. Then there's a chance that the mutation will make the species be able to reproduce easier/better, thus making that mutation survive and stay in the species.

The mathematical challenges of this theory almost make it difficult to believe. The average number of mutations in an organism is 1 in 10 billion (107). To get 2 related mutations is 1 in 100 trillion (1014). To get 3 related mutations is 1 in 1 billion-trillion (1021). To get just 4 related mutations is 1 in 1028. And just 4 mutations aren't enough to make any real, progressive structural changes. Not to mention you'd have to multiply the chances by 2 so that there would be 2 organisms with the same mutations. I'm not even going into detail on the chances of survival and the odds of the two mutated organisms meeting and having off-spring that would survive to carry on those traits and mate. Although it is possible, it's not probable.

Quote from: Muffinmix
Funny story though. In these technological times it's difficult for many religious sectors simply because science is pushing allot of what the classical religious beliefs were, so there is heavy competition between science and religion for beliefs. The funny thing is allot of religious scientists are using techniques like carbon dating for instance to help pinpoint religious dates and historical events. How do you think some people feel about their fellow religious friends working to turn over those forbidden rocks to find out more about their religion? These people ironically also help expand on the very technology that is slowly proving allot of classical religious beliefs to be false.

The whole process of Carbon Dating (Also know as C-14 dating) is a correct one, but there is one flaw in the starting assumptions on which it was created. Dr. Willard Libby (The man who came up with the method) ignored a simple, yet important fact. Assuming you know how the process works, if the input of Carbon into the atmosphere is equal to the decay of it, it's said to be in equilibrium. If it's not, it becomes extremely hard to calculate. Now in Dr. Libby's original work, he believed that the earth is billions of years old, but it wasn't in equilibrium. This offset him because he believed that the earth was old enough to reach it. His calculations showed that it would have take 30,000 years to reach that point. Dr. Libby chose to continue on with his work, but he was misinterpreting the data. If the atmosphere wasn't in equilibrium, then the earth could be a lot younger, meaning that all those billions of years could be reduced to mere thousands.

Quote from: WRB852
There's this thing that happens called mutation. The process of mutation is when DNA gets forgeted up while it's copied. This can happen while cells are multiplied, or when offspring is produced. This is what causes cancer as well, but that's a whole different story. It happens all the time. Make sense so far?

Okay so, let's say a rabbit is born. When it's conceived let's say the DNA gets forgeted up during the process. Is this possible? Of course, it happens all the time. Now let's say during this loving up, the trait for rabbits feet gets altered, and it's born with larger feet. Now let's say these larger feet help the rabbit to run faster. Wouldn't the rabbit have a better chance for survival than other rabbits if it can escape things like wolves easier? Of course it would. Now since this is true, then the rabbit would have a better chance of reproducing, and therefore all of its offspring would have larger feet as well. This is the process of Natural Selection.

Now, if this happens countless times over history, doesn't it make sense that different species could be made?

That's Evolution.

As I said before, mutations are somewhat improbable.

Quote from: Block Builder
If the world is too complex to happen by chance and a god created it, how the hell was god made? If he was just "here", why couldn't life just be "here"? If someone full of infinite wisdom and power can be created by chance or was already here, why couldn't that be the same for us or at least life?

God wasn't made. He always has existed. Now, you make a good point by stating that life could just be "here", but science has already proven that there is a beginning. Now you could say that super molecule that started it has always been here, but then how would it have exploded if it was going on indefinitely? The only possible answer I've ever heard somewhat clearly answer this question is that the universe is slowly contracting to the size of a molecule, then exploding and expanding to what it is today, only to be sucked back in and start the process over again. Now I have some personal theories as to why this wouldn't work, but I won't state them because they'd be misinterpreted as fact.

Quote from: koolkody12
Sure, Christianity is backed up by the bible and has no scientific facts

We all have the same facts. We have the same earth, the same stars, same universe, same bones, same dirt, same everything. It's how we interpret them that gives us different beliefs.

Warning - while you were typing 12 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Lol.

Quote from: Block Builder
Hey Christians, answer this in a way that helps prove god's existance. Wait, you can't.

Already did.

Quote from: Swholli
I never understood that. The scientific method should have been enough to disprove that, if it can't be recreated in an experiment, then it is obviously false. You have one word and that's Bible, and there's no way of testing it. But no, people don't get it.

I have yet to see the "Big Bang" reproduced in an experiment.

Quote from: Block Builder
So the world is so complex that it must have been created by someone, but that more complex thing/person was created by chance. That makes sense.

Read what I wrote.

The stuff to make life couldn't have always existed?

The stuff to make life couldn't have always existed?

Quote from: Thorax
God wasn't made. He always has existed. Now, you make a good point by stating that life could just be "here", but science has already proven that there is a beginning. Now you could say that super molecule that started it has always been here, but then how would it have exploded if it was going on indefinitely? The only possible answer I've ever heard somewhat clearly answer this question is that the universe is slowly contracting to the size of a molecule, then exploding and expanding to what it is today, only to be sucked back in and start the process over again. Now I have some personal theories as to why this wouldn't work, but I won't state them because they'd be misinterpreted as fact.

Read.

I will skip all the bible stuff for I have not done any studying and I am more interested in TF2 then reading the bible right now. I will,however proceed with the science stuffs.

The mathematical challenges of this theory almost make it difficult to believe. The average number of mutations in an organism is 1 in 10 billion (107). To get 2 related mutations is 1 in 100 trillion (1014). To get 3 related mutations is 1 in 1 billion-trillion (1021). To get just 4 related mutations is 1 in 1028. And just 4 mutations aren't enough to make any real, progressive structural changes. Not to mention you'd have to multiply the chances by 2 so that there would be 2 organisms with the same mutations. I'm not even going into detail on the chances of survival and the odds of the two mutated organisms meeting and having off-spring that would survive to carry on those traits and mate. Although it is possible, it's not probable.

Life as we know it was not a stuff load of mutations at one time. It was 1 or two over the course of centuries. Life can also evolve by the preferance of one thing to another. So if a bird likes flowers more then fish, the beaks would be shaped diffrently to be better suited to that food source. A combination of mutations, eviromental preferances and other factors cause evolution.

The whole process of Carbon Dating (Also know as C-14 dating) is a correct one, but there is one flaw in the starting assumptions on which it was created. Dr. Willard Libby (The man who came up with the method) ignored a simple, yet important fact. Assuming you know how the process works, if the input of Carbon into the atmosphere is equal to the decay of it, it's said to be in equilibrium. If it's not, it becomes extremely hard to calculate. Now in Dr. Libby's original work, he believed that the earth is billions of years old, but it wasn't in equilibrium. This offset him because he believed that the earth was old enough to reach it. His calculations showed that it would have take 30,000 years to reach that point. Dr. Libby chose to continue on with his work, but he was misinterpreting the data. If the atmosphere wasn't in equilibrium, then the earth could be a lot younger, meaning that all those billions of years could be reduced to mere thousands.

Carbon is reused a ton of times by plants and animals. It is just not going to stay in the air.

God wasn't made. He always has existed. Now, you make a good point by stating that life could just be "here", but science has already proven that there is a beginning. Now you could say that super molecule that started it has always been here, but then how would it have exploded if it was going on indefinitely? The only possible answer I've ever heard somewhat clearly answer this question is that the universe is slowly contracting to the size of a molecule, then exploding and expanding to what it is today, only to be sucked back in and start the process over again. Now I have some personal theories as to why this wouldn't work, but I won't state them because they'd be misinterpreted as fact.

We are in just one of many realities. The rules in those are different. In our universe, matter has to be in balance but also has to be created. There is nothing to say that there was an original universe with the rules saying that you can create stuff or it can be spontaneously made out of nowhere. All that remains is that that matter goes from A => B. Blackholes take matter in. And everything has an opposite.

We all have the same facts. We have the same earth, the same stars, same universe, same bones, same dirt, same everything. It's how we interpret them that gives us different beliefs.

K

I have yet to see the "Big Bang" reproduced in an experiment.

I do not want to die, do you?

The sun doesn't determine time, it's simply an indicator.  And the first day would still have been Twenty-four hours because God would have designed the sun's gravitational pull to allow the earth to travel around it in Twenty-four hours.
Hm, but you're wrong. According to your beloved book, God did not in fact make the Earth revolve around the Sun, but he made the Sun revolve around the Earth. There is also proof against the twenty-four hour day, as in Psalms 90:4 it is explained that one day to God is equal to thousands of years.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 07:54:34 PM by TheWorm »


I have yet to see the "Big Bang" reproduced in an experiment.


Ha ha ha, LHC. Duh. If it works, in your face, if it doesn't, then in mine.

Ha ha ha, LHC. Duh. If it works, in your face, if it doesn't, then in mine.
The ability for a machine to work does not prove anything. But the results from it do. The problem is, is that people will say it is just another fancy particle. They will not believe it caused the big bang until they see inflation happening in their atomized face.

The ability for a machine to work does not prove anything. But the results from it do. The problem is, is that people will say it is just another fancy particle. They will not believe it caused the big bang until they see inflation happening in their atomized face.

That's... what I meant?

The latter part is what I am trying to point out here.

The whole process of Carbon Dating (Also know as C-14 dating) is a correct one, but there is one flaw in the starting assumptions on which it was created. Dr. Willard Libby (The man who came up with the method) ignored a simple, yet important fact. Assuming you know how the process works, if the input of Carbon into the atmosphere is equal to the decay of it, it's said to be in equilibrium. If it's not, it becomes extremely hard to calculate. Now in Dr. Libby's original work, he believed that the earth is billions of years old, but it wasn't in equilibrium. This offset him because he believed that the earth was old enough to reach it. His calculations showed that it would have take 30,000 years to reach that point. Dr. Libby chose to continue on with his work, but he was misinterpreting the data. If the atmosphere wasn't in equilibrium, then the earth could be a lot younger, meaning that all those billions of years could be reduced to mere thousands.
You act as though C-14 dating is the only kind there is. There are numerous others, including:

Potassium-Argon dating
Argon-Argon dating
Rubidium-Strontium dating
Samarium-Neodymium dating
Lutetium-Hafnium dating
Rhenium-Osmium dating

And all of the aforementioned methods, as well as C-14 dating, seem to agree.

The mathematical challenges of this theory almost make it difficult to believe. The average number of mutations in an organism is 1 in 10 billion (107). To get 2 related mutations is 1 in 100 trillion (1014). To get 3 related mutations is 1 in 1 billion-trillion (1021). To get just 4 related mutations is 1 in 1028. And just 4 mutations aren't enough to make any real, progressive structural changes. Not to mention you'd have to multiply the chances by 2 so that there would be 2 organisms with the same mutations. I'm not even going into detail on the chances of survival and the odds of the two mutated organisms meeting and having off-spring that would survive to carry on those traits and mate. Although it is possible, it's not probable.
Using numbers does not disprove mutations.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCgt3qb-Kb0&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeTssvexa9s&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26dwfZIqfco&feature=channel_page

I have yet to see the "Big Bang" reproduced in an experiment.
"I have yet to see God."

The whole process of Carbon Dating (Also know as C-14 dating) is a correct one, but there is one flaw in the starting assumptions on which it was created. Dr. Willard Libby (The man who came up with the method) ignored a simple, yet important fact. Assuming you know how the process works, if the input of Carbon into the atmosphere is equal to the decay of it, it's said to be in equilibrium. If it's not, it becomes extremely hard to calculate. Now in Dr. Libby's original work, he believed that the earth is billions of years old, but it wasn't in equilibrium. This offset him because he believed that the earth was old enough to reach it. His calculations showed that it would have take 30,000 years to reach that point. Dr. Libby chose to continue on with his work, but he was misinterpreting the data. If the atmosphere wasn't in equilibrium, then the earth could be a lot younger, meaning that all those billions of years could be reduced to mere thousands.

How do you explain the fact that the relative standard error of every carbon dating measurement to date followed a specific trend of precision that makes his theory extremely likely?

If the earth was a few thousand years old and the equilibrium in radioactive carbon was not set, you would get readings that could be all over the place, sure, but because everything would not be homogeneous either we would be getting error scales of all sorts of sizes (10 year scales to even 500 year scales and beyond). If you plot that statistically after processing the information you woud get major discrepancies all over the place. This is not the case however.

Furthermore, if all carbon samples were not at equilibrium in any condition then every calibration run on a cyclotron with several carbon calibration samples would yield largely differing results every time, leading to very poor precision which you could immediately see (unrealistically large discrepency between each different sample). Now I will admit they do not calibrate their instruments only once, they do it before each major run-time to bump out the minor changes in the instrument between runs. This is done to set up a new, more accurate baseline which is ultimately caused by a factor of things (handler's skill, instrument changes, etc.) as well as a precision measurement, the baseline usually doesn't change all that much unless the operator is incompetent, I doubt that strongly.

With non-equilibrated carbon samples each calibration would yield largely differing precision ranges, since none of the samples would be the same as they're supposed to be. The fact that the error range in calibration using refined carbon samples from the very ground you stand on is so low is enough statistically to take carbon-dating's accuracy as very very likely.

You act as though C-14 dating is the only kind there is. There are numerous others, including:

Potassium-Argon dating
Argon-Argon dating
Rubidium-Strontium dating
Samarium-Neodymium dating
Lutetium-Hafnium dating
Rhenium-Osmium dating

Carbon is still very relevant to the whole shebang because it questions the age of the earth by itself. All those other methods go even deeper back in time, but use largely the same principles. Statistics baby!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 08:10:50 PM by Muffinmix »