Bullpups vs. Normal Rifles: Also Su-Frogfoot vs. A10 Warthog

[Tomcat]

/title
Previous debates can still be debated to some extent, please keep it to a minimum though:
T-90 vs. M1A2 Abrams.
AR-x vs AK-x
Putin vs Obama

[Ad Bot]

[EazyE]

M1 here.

[Mikoyan]

T-90 by far..

[Harm94]

M60 Patton is the best tank. It has a phone on the outside that allows infantry to talk to the crew. The Abrams has been in service for 20 years and just now they are adding phones, plus the engine exhaust of the abrams can melt the paint off a vehicle. Not something I would want to stand behind if I was a grunt. Plus the 105mm gun on the m60 Patton and early M1 variants have a wider ammunition variety. Also the M60 has a diesel engine which is more fuel efficient and easier to maintain.

[Tomcat]

T-90 by far..

Why?

[Mikoyan]

Why?

better armor, main gun, ATGMs, operational range, it's cheaper, diesel > turbine, etc.

[Frontrox]

M60 Patton is the best tank. It has a phone on the outside that allows infantry to talk to the crew. The Abrams has been in service for 20 years and just now they are adding phones

Apparently the Marine variant has phones already

And here's a bunch of stats I found:

Code: [Select]

M1A1 (left)---T-90(right)

Mobility
Top Speed: 42mph --- 40mph
Combat Weight: 72 tons --- 49.6 tons
Range: 298 miles --- 340~400 miles
Power/weight: 21.4hp/ton --- 22hp/ton
Min. Turn Radius: Pivot --- Pivot
Suspension: Torsion Bars --- Torsion Bars
Ground Pressure: 14.4psi --- 12.9psi
Clearance: 19in --- 19.37in
Gradient: 60% --- 60%
Side Slope: 40% --- 40%
Vertical Obstacle: 48.96in --- 33.46in
Trench: 9ft --- 9.18ft
Fording: 4ft --- 3.39ft (16.4ft w/ snorkel)
Transmission: Automatic, 4 forward, 2 reverse --- Automatic, 7 forward, 1 reverse
Engine: 1500hp Gas Turbine --- 1000hp Diesel V12
External Fuel: No --- Yes
T-90 Advan. 9
M1A1 Advan. 3
Winner T-90

Firepower
Main Gun: Smoothbore 120mm/44, 12rpm --- Smoothbore 125mm/48, 10rpm
Main Gun Ammo: 40 --- 43
Main Gun Rounds: APFSFS, HEAT, MP-AT, HE-OR, Canister --- APFSDS, HEAT, HE-FRAG
Indirect Fire Ability: No --- No
Coaxial Gun: 7.62mm, 700rpm --- 7.62mm, 600rpm
Secondary Gun Ammo: 10000rds, loaded --- 2000rds, loaded
Roof Gun: 12.7mm, 500rpm --- 12.7mm, 500rpm
Roof Gun Ammo: 200rds, loaded --- 150rds, loaded
Missile(s): None --- AT-11 Sniper
Missile Capacity: N/A --- (Substitute for main gun rounds)
Gun Elevation: +20 --- +14
Gun Depression: -10 --- -6
T-90 Advan. 5
M1A1 Advan. 5
Winner: Draw

Protection
Armor Type: Laminated RHA Steel + DU --- Laminated RHA Steel + Quartz Gravel + Applique
Spall Liners: Yes --- Yes
Flammable Fuel: Yes --- No
Fire Extinguisher: Halon --- Carbon Dioxide
Blow-off Panels: Yes --- Yes
Ammo Compartment: Yes --- Yes
V-Hull: No --- No
APS: No* --- Yes
ERA: No --- Yes
Escape Hatch: No --- Yes
T-90 Advan.6
M1A1 Advan. 0
Winner T-90
(*Note the M1A1 was at one time fitted with an MCD that was supposed to serve as an active protection system. However, crew testimonials coupled to the fact that the TUSK kit and M1A2 don't mount MCDs leaves the MCD as a red herring)

Crew Features
Crew Capacity: 4 --- 3
Passenger Capacity: None --- None
Air Conditioning: No --- No
NBC System: Overpressure --- Overpressure
T-90 Advan. 0
M1A1 Advan. 1
Winner M1A1

Surprise
Length: 32.25ft --- 31.26ft
Height: 9.47ft --- 7.3ft
Width: 12ft --- 12.4ft
Driver Optics: Night Vision --- Night Vision
TC Optics: N/A --- TIS
Gunner Optics: TIS --- TIS
Landline Cable Jack: No --- Yes
Tank-Infanry Telephone: No --- Yes
APU: Yes --- Yes
Top Speed: 42mph --- 40mph
Combat Weight: 72 tons --- 49.6 tons
Range: 298 miles --- 340~400 miles
T-90 Advan. 7
M1A1 Advan. 2
Winner T-90
OH and the M1A2 isn't much different than the M1A1

[Mikoyan]

NO AIR CONDITIONING???

[Frontrox]

NO AIR CONDITIONING???

I know that's terrible, what kind of American tank is this?! I hope it has cup holders

[Funkadelic]

T-90. Has composite armor and overall better defenses but probably doesn't have technology as up to par with the M1A2. I think in a fight they would be pretty much equal.

[Tomcat]

It appears that the  stats Frntrox posted are skewered in favor of the T-90 because it does not take into account crew training/morale, NATO ammunition (which is superior to CIS ammunition), and it appears that Chobham armor is a ceramic air-spaced armor.

Also, why was the T-90 appliqué counted and the M1 Abrams appliqué not counted?

[Mikoyan]

Uh how is the crew training different/better?

Do they teach the Abrams crews 'tactics' they used against Iraqi export version T-72s? Lol

EDIT: also, that depleted uranium NATO ammunition is terrible on the crew's health.

[SlayerZ99]

T-90 is also superior in BF3 because you can actually aim behind you unlike te abrams

[Muslim]

i like tanks

[Titanium Man]

Japanese Type 10 still looks the loveiest