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Total Members Voted: 88

Author Topic: Theism / Religion Discussion  (Read 3414 times)

as far as the existence of some kind of divine force goes, i'm agnostic theist

i don't try and bring science and religion together since they're fundamentally different, and i think they can coexist fine if you know about those differences. i have faith in the scientific process and in our understanding of the universe, thus i believe in the big bang (or a similar event), the processes by which the solar system and other cosmic bodies formed, and the processes by which life comes to exist and evolve. i don't believe that complexity has to come from something inherently more complex (a top-down view of creation; i could then easily assert that the topmost element must have then come from something more complex, and that also from something more complex, and so on), but that complexity builds on itself (a bottom-up view of creation; as science has led us to understand as true), as we have observed with evolution on earth

however, i also have religious faith in the existence of a divine power. in more human terms, i suppose this is most accurately described as a basic belief in the prevalence of good over evil. in terms of creation, i might also say that, as we don't honestly know where matter and the forces of the universe came from, a divine force of creation could fill in that gap until we have a scientific explanation. i see no reason why a designer couldn't create the universe, the earth, and its life through the scientific forces we know exist and can observe right under our feet, and it's honestly very painful and saddening to see religious individuals deny things that can be directly perceived because they're convinced it has to invalidate their beliefs.

Gnostic Atheist for the most part. A lot of religions were made to explain things that we didn't understand at the time, but now we're starting to get more of an idea of how the universe works. Afterlife wise, nobody will ever know.

, and it's honestly very painful and saddening to see religious individuals deny things that can be directly perceived because they're convinced it has to invalidate their beliefs.

I feel the same way. In my view of things, the earth is only about 4,000 - 8,000 years old. But that right there seems to contradict things that take a long time to happen, like fossilization, the amount of light years to visible objects in the celestial sphere, and my all-time favorite: plate tectonics. However, the way I see some of these things, keeping what we know now from science in mind, makes them totally possible.

You know, this'll probably be long and boring to read, but I'm going to give my theory of plate tectonics that I've come up with pretty much myself (there might be other people out there with the same thoughts, but I never heard of them...)

Now we all have heard about Pangaea/Pangea, the supercontinent that supposedly existed before out current seven continents.



Even in such a small time frame with similar speeds that we get today from the movement of the continents, Pangaea could very well have existed and gotten to how we see landforms today. Let's look at how the plates are today.



Take a look at the Atlantic ocean division, commonly known as the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Here, molten rock hardens and spreads apart. This spreading pushes the nearby plates so that Eurasia and Africa are moving farther away from the Americas. However, if you look at the general shape of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, it molds quite nicely with the landmasses on either side, making it totally plausible that Eurasia and Africa were at one time connected together in a larger landmass. At the current rate of 1 or 2 inches per year however, this would supposedly take millions of years right?

So far, everything I've covered is pretty much common knowledge. Now I'll get into the stuff I've come up with.

My theory is that plate tectonics simply were not a thing while Pangaea was still in one piece. All we lived on was a totally solid planet with no cracks or contusions in the crust. There would have been no earthquakes, no volcanoes, and little or no movement of the gigantic land mass. I'm kind of inclined to say that there wouldn't have been regular mountains or hills, but I don't know if they would've, making the assumption that God created all, actually been created.

According to the Bible, mankind became incredibly wicked after the falling out Adam and Eve had in the garden. God decided to destroy every living thing with a worldwide Flood. He had Noah build an ark and sent animals to him, which could've gotten to Noah making the assumption that Pangaea was still in existence (knocks out the argument that animals would have to cross oceans to get to Noah, since humans supposedly didn't exist during Pangaea's breakup in the uniformitarianist perspective).

Next comes how the Flood happened.

Quote from: Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis tends to narrate things quite poetically. "The floodgates of the sky were opened" clearly implies rain, but 40 days of the heaviest rain ever recorded would not fill the entire Earth to the point that all land is underwater. That's where we take "the fountains of the great deep burst open". "Fountains" seems to imply water shooting upward. "Of the great deep" implies coming from inside the Earth or ground. Could we theorize that water had existed underneath the Earth's crust for some amount of time? Actually yes. Scientists using seismograms have found an enormous amount of water still underneath Asia and think it could be as big as the Arctic Ocean (Citation).

Well, what if the crust suddenly had a massive rupture thereby releasing these enormous amounts of water? That would open up massive cracks all over the world. Even just a couple of miles worth of trapped water would've left the whole planet waterlogged. If one of these cracks happened in the middle of the Pangaea supercontinent, it would cause a divide and water would rush in to fill the gap. Now we have multiple continents all in very close proximity. All of which are underwater.

This comes to another realization. How are scientists finding the fossils of water creatures in deserts, on mountains, and in completely landlocked areas? Well, if the continents were all underwater, such as in a massive catastrophic event such as the Flood, we would have water creatures living and dying where there corpses would then sink onto one of the landmasses to begin the fossilization process.

None of this yet satisfies how the continents got so far apart so fast, or even crashed together so hard as to cause mountain ranges (India to Eurasia with the Himalayas for example). This is where we get into physics. Once again, I will use the Mid-Atlantic Ridge as an example. The Mid-Atlantic Ridge is a mountain where the American plates meet the Eurasian and African plates. Well what if a mountain suddenly sliced through Pangaea along one of the new fault zones?

Lets say that this mountain is like a hyperbolic ramp, similar to this (pardon the example, not finding good images but you should get the gist)



Imagine that the very top is the crest of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. On one slope, you have the Americas. On the other slope, you have Eurasia/Africa. What happens if you put a ball at the top of one of the slopes? It will slide down at a high velocity. Once the ball reaches the flattened area of the hyperbola (flat, no gradual asymptotes), friction will slow it down. Were the continents at one time moving much faster than they are today? I think a good theory to consider. Clearly the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is creating more crust and spreading it outwards so the continents probably won't completely stop.

tl;dr - sorry, there isn't one

i still believe in a god, just not the biblical bullstuff now.

if there is an actual god, by most common definitions of what a god is.
then it does not give a stuff what we do, as it is omnipotent, and micromanaging and needing or wanting anything from us is imperfect, thus not possible.

atheist
but agnosticism/gnosticism is harder to say

If you specifically define, with testable criteria, what God is, and you test those criteria and determine them to be false, then you can conclude that god does not exist.
(People who don't want them to be false will argue otherwise, but that's another argument entirely)
The concept of "a god" is so extremely vague, however, that if you don't specifically define it, and have nothing to test, so you can't know anything

Agnostic Theist, I believe there is a God, but I can't prove that to someone else.

Is anyone a pastafarian in these forums?

I don't have the answers, I don't think we will ever discover the big questions.

Some people think gods made everything, some people believe in many gods, some people believe in many lesser gods made by one powerful god, some people believe in the same god just with a different name and method of worship. Some think god is nature or the universe. Others think the answer lies in science through theories and hypothesizes.

Some believe that there is only science, others think there is only religion, others think science and religion go hand in hand. Who knows.

One thing for sure is that people who think they have all the answers and goes around stuffting on other peoples believes is automatically an starfish in my book. If you are good Christian, you won't judge people for being an atheist because the bible said not to judge. Like wise if you an atheist who hates persecution from religious people, then don't go persecuting others.

I feel the same way. In my view of things, the earth is only about 4,000 - 8,000 years old. But that right there seems to contradict things that take a long time to happen, like fossilization, the amount of light years to visible objects in the celestial sphere, and my all-time favorite: plate tectonics. However, the way I see some of these things, keeping what we know now from science in mind, makes them totally possible.

You know, this'll probably be long and boring to read, but I'm going to give my theory of plate tectonics that I've come up with pretty much myself (there might be other people out there with the same thoughts, but I never heard of them...)
You know there was point in time when scientists rejected continental drift and sea floor spreading. Plus no one really had an idea what the sea floor looked like until sonar came out in the 1930s. Even then it was still regected by scientists until the 50s and 70s. But yeah, even scientists can be pretty conservative.

If you specifically define, with testable criteria, what God is, and you test those criteria and determine them to be false, then you can conclude that god does not exist.
(People who don't want them to be false will argue otherwise, but that's another argument entirely)
The concept of "a god" is so extremely vague, however, that if you don't specifically define it, and have nothing to test, so you can't know anything
the idea is that you literally cannot test the existence of a god. it isn't scientific; it doesn't claim to be scientific. it's religion and religious questions are fundamentally different from scientific questions, both in their focus and in the means of answering them.

by that i mean to say: you can't fully and effectively answer religious questions (what is our purpose? is there a god?) with science, and you can't fully and effectively answer scientific questions (what are we made of? how does life work?) with religion.

there's logically no way to thoroughly test and answer a religious question via the scientific method, because religion deals in abstract concepts that don't require nor rely on perception, whereas science is entirely reliant on what can be observed and predicted.

there's also logically no way to thoroughly answer a scientific question via religious study. no matter how hard you try, you always come back to your religious base, and unlike science where ideas that don't work are thrown away, the basic tenets of a religion are static and non-negotiable (and also extremely subject to human psychology rather than definitive fact).

which is why:
i don't try and bring science and religion together since they're fundamentally different, and i think they can coexist fine if you know about those differences
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 06:51:31 PM by otto-san »

the idea is that you literally cannot test the existence of a god.
Not directly, no. But most religions make numerous testable claims, such as the age of earth

And when claim after claim after claim is proven false, you're usually left with two explanations, either "god is deliberately deceiving us" or "perhaps it's not a coincidence that this god's knowledge is the same as the knowledge of the people at the time that belief in him originated." Which you choose depends on what kind of pursuits you follow; emotional or intellectual (Note that I'm not saying believers are dumb)

It's only these gods I claim to have any degree of knowledge over. And even then I'm not claiming absolute knowledge, just "I'm pretty sure"
There's uncountable religions I don't know anything about, and thus I can't claim any degree of knowledge over their gods.
And the deistic approach of "there's a god and he exists and that's it" will never be testable and thus no one can claim knowledge over that.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 08:40:34 PM by Headcrab Zombie »

Agnostic Theist here

OFFTOPIC: my puppy broke my loving headset

i know god doesn't exist because wtf. why would he

i know god doesn't exist because wtf. why would he
why not.

You know there was point in time when scientists rejected continental drift and sea floor spreading. Plus no one really had an idea what the sea floor looked like until sonar came out in the 1930s. Even then it was still regected by scientists until the 50s and 70s. But yeah, even scientists can be pretty conservative.

Yeah they guy who formulated the idea was a laughingstock for a while. I'm still curious though if my theory is actually a valid one. I'm sure there are loopholes somewhere that I'm missing but it seems sound.