POLITICS & DONALD Annoying Orange MEGATHREAD

[Karl Marx]

Are you kidding me? You need it written down on a fancy piece of paper that people shouldn't be left to die in exchange for their contibution to society to even consider it? Did the government tell you how to wipe your ass, too?

[Ad Bot]

[otto-san]

The first ten amendments define the rights of the people. It's relevant because single-payer healthcare assumes that healthcare is a right while under the constitution (supercedes local/state law) healthcare is not considered a right, therefore there is a potential issue of unconstitutionality if you force taxpayers to subsidize a commodity (healthcare).

If it were legally defined as a right, it would be different. As it currently stands, however, it is not.

no, that would not be an issue. congress has the ability to tax citizens to fund federal programs, and they also have the ability to spend the money they collect. this could be either direct payments or through grants-in-aid to states as with ACA, but either way, there's no reason this arrangement should be unconstitutional.

[Foxscotch]

The first ten amendments define the rights of the people. It's relevant because single-payer healthcare assumes that healthcare is a right while under the constitution (supercedes local/state law) healthcare is not considered a right, therefore there is a potential issue of unconstitutionality if you force taxpayers to subsidize a commodity (healthcare).

what does the constitution say about paved roads?

[Cappytaino]

what does the constitution say about paved roads?

paved roads are desirable for everyone because they facilitate more rapid transportation of goods, services, and people. Most people would agree to pay for roads because it reduces the cost of other things you are going to buy anyway, among other benefits. It makes sense for me to pay for the road considering I use it every day and benefit from it.

Many states also use tolls/gas tax to pay for roads. The people using the roads are paying for them.

On the other hand, if I'm a healthy individual and willing to pay for my own healthcare, I don't see why taxing me to pay for someone else's medical expenses helps me at all. The emotional "but it's for the common good/people will die if you don't!" isn't relevant. I don't benefit from it either way. It won't reduce my already minimal healthcare expense for sure.

Single payer healthcare is literally the exact opposite of paved roads. The people that would benefit most from single payer healthcare are the ones that don't make enough money to pay tax. The people that use roads the most are buying the most gas/passing toll booths more than other people, therefore contributing more to build and maintain those roads.

[Karl Marx]

paved roads are desirable for everyone because they facilitate more rapid transportation of goods, services, and people. Most people would agree to pay for roads because it reduces the cost of other things you are going to buy anyway, among other benefits. It makes sense for me to pay for the road considering I use it every day and benefit from it.

Many states also use tolls/gas tax to pay for roads. The people using the roads are paying for them.

On the other hand, if I'm a healthy individual and willing to pay for my own healthcare, I don't see why taxing me to pay for someone else's medical expenses helps me at all. The emotional "but it's for the common good/people will die if you don't!" isn't relevant. I don't benefit from it either way. It won't reduce my already minimal healthcare expense for sure.

So let's just clear this up before the debate continues any further: You literally do not give a forget about anyone's life but your own. Nevermind the fact that it would be cheaper overall, even for you, to implement single payer, but this is what you're communicating, yes?

[Tactical Nuke]

Are you kidding me? You need it written down on a fancy piece of paper that people shouldn't be left to die in exchange for their contibution to society to even consider it? Did the government tell you how to wipe your ass, too?

the constitution was made to limit the government's powers you handicap

So let's just clear this up before the debate continues any further: You literally do not give a forget about anyone's life but your own. Nevermind the fact that it would be cheaper overall, even for you, to implement single payer, but this is what you're communicating, yes?

it looks like you're fitting right into the role of Karl Marx considering you're trying to actively demonize anyone who doesn't think like you do

[Cappytaino]

So let's just clear this up before the debate continues any further: You literally do not give a forget about anyone's life but your own. Nevermind the fact that it would be cheaper overall, even for you, to implement single payer, but this is what you're communicating, yes?

I'm not saying I don't give a forget about other people. I'm saying I don't think a one-sided wealth redistribution program is a good idea given that it's unconstitutional and creates a monopoly due to the increased leverage of government negotiating with doctors about payment vs multiple companies.

Single payer healthcare naturally increases use (demand) of services, leading to providers being required to set limits lest have resources squandered because there is no burden of individual financial liability for wasting said resources. When you are under the impression something is "free" you're going to use it a hell of a lot more.  People who were already going to use medical services anyway i.e. cancer patients or people injured in accidents would benefit, but the unintended side effect is that the amount of ER visits/doctors visits for stupid, menial stuff will skyrocket.

The number of mentally ill/deluded people that believe themselves to have a more serious condition and go to the ER is already high enough with the financial obligation to pay for their own services. If that barrier were removed, the problem would get worse, as would likely the amount of people coming in faking illness trying to obtain narcotics.

If there's no personal financial obligation, there's no consequence to abuse of the system.

[PhantOS]

On the other hand, if I'm a healthy individual and willing to pay for my own healthcare, I don't see why taxing me to pay for someone else's medical expenses helps me at all.

it doesn't help you at all. i don't even drive a car and part of my taxes go towards roads. it doesn't help me at all to pay even a cent towards road production. however, in the bigger picture, every cent i pay towards paving road taxes and other civil planning events actually helps truck drivers transport groceries to my local supermarket, helps my boss get to work on time so he can run the business and make sure i get my paycheck at the end of the week.

so i went from 'roads dont help me in any way' to 'roads help other people help me' and that's exactly what health care does. making sure other people have security over their health puts less stress on them financially. this means that they can put aside the money they are saving so their son/daughter can go to college.  or maybe they have some sort of health condition that they can now pay to treat, and their friends and family can be more productive knowing that someone they love isn't dying.

hey, maybe that one person im helping out just happens to be my high school teacher who gave me academic support while i was struggling. there are people all around us in need and saying 'man i refuse to pay half a cent a month because it doesn't benefit me while they pay nothing' doesn't help society stay together

[Cappytaino]

it doesn't help you at all. i don't even drive a car and part of my taxes go towards roads. it doesn't help me at all to pay even a cent towards road production. however, in the bigger picture, every cent i pay towards paving road taxes and other civil planning events actually helps truck drivers transport groceries to my local supermarket

so i went from 'roads dont help me in any way' to 'roads help other people help me' and that's exactly what health care does. making sure other people have security over their health puts less stress on them financially. this means that they can put aside the money they are saving so their son/daughter can go to college.  or maybe they have some sort of health condition that they can now pay to treat, and their friends and family can be more productive knowing that someone they love isn't dying.

Do you buy things? do you get packages in the mail? Then it does benefit you to pay the road tax because it facilitates transport of goods and people to provide services.

I still fail to see how paying more for healthcare will help me when I already have minimal cost incurred. I don't agree with letting people die in the street but I'm wary of the widespread abuse of resources that would inevitably occur along with the legitimate use.

Have you ever been to the ER? The wait time is already crazy long unless you're critically ill/injured. It would put even more of a strain on existing resources if people could come in to waste more time with non-issues i.e. having a migraine and going to the ER for it

[PhantOS]

I still fail to see how paying more for healthcare will help me when I already have minimal cost incurred. I don't agree with letting people die in the street but I'm wary of the widespread abuse of resources that would inevitably occur along with the legitimate use.

it doesn't help you directly, but it helps the people around you feel secure and maintain their lives and jobs. if someone who works at a gas station, say, has diabetes, and their health insurance were to magically lose coverage, they may not be able to serve you there. of course they could hire a new worker, but there's only so many people you can hire when 95% of the population has one or more health issues.

keeping society healthy is vital, just like keeping blood circulation in your body. every cell needs oxygen, and a small few won't be able to get it simply by bad luck, but as long as the majority has security and is able to function and do their job, the entire body can stay functional.

Have you ever been to the ER? The wait time is already crazy long unless you're critically ill/injured. It would put even more of a strain on existing resources if people could come in to waste more time with non-issues i.e. having a migraine and going to the ER for it

i waited in the ER for about 2 hours, as i was having an asthma attack which was almost life-threatening. they definitely prioritize who requires immediate attention and who doesn't. if the government invests more into health care, then hospitals could be able to have more staff on board and have less resources stretched thin

the amount of people who are misdiagnosed has nothing to do with health coverage. nobody in their right mind is going to walk to the ER and waste valuable work hours unless they are in some sort of debilitating pain

[Nonnel]

are you telling me people should pay for their healthcare

are you telling me people should die because some dirtbags don't want to shill out an extra five bucks a month

[Deus Ex]

I don't know why you guys are so insistent on
A. paying for other people's stuff and
B. trying to force other people to pay for other people's stuff

[Karl Marx]

I'm not saying I don't give a forget about other people. I'm saying I don't think a one-sided wealth redistribution program is a good idea given that it's unconstitutional and creates a monopoly due to the increased leverage of government negotiating with doctors about payment vs multiple companies.

Single payer healthcare naturally increases use (demand) of services, leading to providers being required to set limits lest have resources squandered because there is no burden of individual financial liability for wasting said resources. When you are under the impression something is "free" you're going to use it a hell of a lot more.  People who were already going to use medical services anyway i.e. cancer patients or people injured in accidents would benefit, but the unintended side effect is that the amount of ER visits/doctors visits for stupid, menial stuff will skyrocket.

The number of mentally ill/deluded people that believe themselves to have a more serious condition and go to the ER is already high enough with the financial obligation to pay for their own services. If that barrier were removed, the problem would get worse, as would likely the amount of people coming in faking illness trying to obtain narcotics.

If there's no personal financial obligation, there's no consequence to abuse of the system.

Why would that logic apply to hospitals and not other businesses? You want them to be run the same way, apparently. If a business fails to meet to demand of the market, that's a failure of the business. Artificially curbing the demand in order to lessen the obligation is nothing more than greed and classist gatekeeping. Bringing drug addiction into this debate is an interesting choice as well. Ignoring the drug epidemic sustained by the aforementioned classism, rich people can illegally exploit systems in order to obtain drugs as well. The difference in this case, however, is that it is much easier to bribe doctors with the amount of money they have, or worse, directly fund cartels. Once again, rich people perpetuate this issue much more effectively that a poor person could ever hope to.

Besides, do you really think a trained medical professional can't recognize someone lying about their symptoms? They dont just hand out highly addictive drugs to just anybody who acts sick.

[PhantOS]

I don't know why you guys are so insistent on
A. paying for other people's stuff and
B. trying to force other people to pay for other people's stuff

because taxes hold society together and allow a godly amount of security for the majority of people. a world without people being forced to hold up society is a world where people hold up themselves, aka the libertarian anarchy dystopia

[Ipquarx]

I don't know why you guys are so insistent on
A. paying for other people's stuff and
B. trying to force other people to pay for other people's stuff

You literally just dismissed all forms of taxes
Enjoy your anarchy