Author Topic: "See how machine learning is helping us tackle gender bias in movies."  (Read 7710 times)

the first point is interesting because I think that a possible explanation is that movies that are marketed to women contain more women, but men are less likely to see those movies, so they won't sell as well.

Compare The Avengers to Bridesmaids. Of the two movies, the Avengers is the most likely movie for men to watch. The protagonists of Bridesmaids are all female, but IMO it isn't as compelling to men, so they won't watch it. It isn't necessarily that men are avoiding movies starring women, but rather, that many of them just aren't interesting.

I can tell you that personally, I'd have more fun shooting myself in the foot with a shotgun than watching a Melissa McCarthy movie. I don't hate women in starring roles, but I just don't find movies directed to women as compelling. I want metal, explosions, and mindless entertainment when I go to see a summer blockbuster. Not cheesy rom-com bullstuff.
i wish i could shoot melissa mcarthy in the foot with a shotgun

the first point is interesting because I think that a possible explanation is that movies that are marketed to women contain more women, but men are less likely to see those movies, so they won't sell as well.

Compare The Avengers to Bridesmaids. Of the two movies, the Avengers is the most likely movie for men to watch. The protagonists of Bridesmaids are all female, but IMO it isn't as compelling to men, so they won't watch it. It isn't necessarily that men are avoiding movies starring women, but rather, that many of them just aren't interesting.

I can tell you that personally, I'd have more fun shooting myself in the foot with a shotgun than watching a Melissa McCarthy movie. I don't hate women in starring roles, but I just don't find movies directed to women as compelling. I want metal, explosions, and mindless entertainment when I go to see a summer blockbuster. Not cheesy rom-com bullstuff.
it's interesting how we have such a clear idea that women must obviously like x genre of media, and men must like y genre. i mean, the sociological explanation is pretty simple, and it makes sense that it'd be that way, but it's strange how strongly the films industry sticks to those archetypes. i think there's a better explanation here than just "well women like this and men like that," but i do think it's probably correct that woman-targeting films probably have a hard time reaching a broad male audience, and vice-versa. that being said, i somewhat suspect this is mostly down to marketing and poor writing. a good story should be able to theoretically reach a broad audience regardless, so maybe film writers are just playing into niches they've carved out for themselves by marketing movies, either in the present or the past, so strongly to a specific gender. i think that trend is fading more and more though, and a lot of media is appearing that actually proves that it's not so hard to create a compelling piece of writing with a heterogeneous cast if you aren't afraid to break away from the safety of the archetypes and tropes people have gotten used to. it's an interesting thing to think about tho, we gender movies just like how we gender toys and clothes

it's interesting how we have such a clear idea that women must obviously like x genre of media, and men must like y genre. i mean, the sociological explanation is pretty simple, and it makes sense that it'd be that way, but it's strange how strongly the films industry sticks to those archetypes. i think there's a better explanation here than just "well women like this and men like that," but i do think it's probably correct that woman-targeting films probably have a hard time reaching a broad male audience, and vice-versa. that being said, i somewhat suspect this is mostly down to marketing and poor writing. a good story should be able to theoretically reach a broad audience regardless, so maybe film writers are just playing into niches they've carved out for themselves by marketing movies, either in the present or the past, so strongly to a specific gender. i think that trend is fading more and more though, and a lot of media is appearing that actually proves that it's not so hard to create a compelling piece of writing with a heterogeneous cast if you aren't afraid to break away from the safety of the archetypes and tropes people have gotten used to. it's an interesting thing to think about tho, we gender movies just like how we gender toys and clothes
I believe a lot of it has to do with corporate bureaucracy and getting a movie green-lit for funding. I know that at least in my experience, sitting down to watch movies with other guys, we have not once watched a movie that would be more traditionally targeted at women. I think a lot of it boils down to what men want from a movie vs what women want.

Men tend to like brainless entertainment- look at football, action movies, FPS games, etc. Men like to see stuff get forgeted up and don't care much for the plot provided it isn't incredibly stupid. Even then, it may still be a good movie depending on how it's marketed.

Women care more for plot development, I'd think. Anecdotally, my ex and her friends loved the movie Titanic and they watched it at least once every month together. I don't have the patience to sit through such a long movie, nor do I really care about the plot as much as they did. The most "plot intensive" movie I'd watch by choice would have to be one of the James Bond movies- they have enough action to stop me from getting bored and a plot that ties everything together nicely, in most cases (we don't talk about Moonraker).

tl;dr IMO guys like violence and explosions and dont really care about plot, women care about the plot but usually don't trend towards violent movies.


I believe a lot of it has to do with corporate bureaucracy and getting a movie green-lit for funding. I know that at least in my experience, sitting down to watch movies with other guys, we have not once watched a movie that would be more traditionally targeted at women. I think a lot of it boils down to what men want from a movie vs what women want.

Men tend to like brainless entertainment- look at football, action movies, FPS games, etc. Men like to see stuff get forgeted up and don't care much for the plot provided it isn't incredibly stupid. Even then, it may still be a good movie depending on how it's marketed.

Women care more for plot development, I'd think. Anecdotally, my ex and her friends loved the movie Titanic and they watched it at least once every month together. I don't have the patience to sit through such a long movie, nor do I really care about the plot as much as they did. The most "plot intensive" movie I'd watch by choice would have to be one of the James Bond movies- they have enough action to stop me from getting bored and a plot that ties everything together nicely, in most cases (we don't talk about Moonraker).

tl;dr IMO guys like violence and explosions and dont really care about plot, women care about the plot but usually don't trend towards violent movies.
i don't think i agree that this is necessarily the case, but it is certainly the nature of the market, and that defo matters. the kinds of entertainment that we assign to male/female roles probably generates these ideas about what men/women supposedly like more or less, and i guess really, because media perpetuates those ideas, they stay embedded into our culture. on an individual basis though, i don't think there's any reason to apply those roles. anyone can enjoy a good movie regardless of their love, and if writers are implementing tropes that hinder their ability to reach a broader audience, that's their creative choice. i don't know much about the investors' side of the films industry, but it is also a good point that a lot of these things probably have to do with the risks associated with breaking too much away from the norm. for a production that costs millions of dollars, i suppose it's likely that investors expect a lot of information up-front about what target audiences are being hit and how the writers intend to hit them, and that process probably necessitates a good bit of this stereotyping from the start

THEY ACTUALLY GAVE REY A SPOTLIGHT AND THEY SAID

"we put rey in the movie because she was a strong female character that would never ever quit" (not exact quote)

yeah she never ever quits because she's a mary sue who learns the force immediately through "dumb luck" and is just generally exceptional at everything ever

this is what happens when you try "tackling gender bias", you put the gender of your character before the character itself and you end up with a stuff character

THEY ACTUALLY GAVE REY A SPOTLIGHT AND THEY SAID

"we put rey in the movie because she was a strong female character that would never ever quit" (not exact quote)

yeah she never ever quits because she's a mary sue who learns the force immediately through "dumb luck" and is just generally exceptional at everything ever

this is what happens when you try "tackling gender bias", you put the gender of your character before the character itself and you end up with a stuff character
i wonder if there's a tv tropes page for this, because i'm sure it's common enough to deserve one. characters that exist purely to reject traditional archetypes are really common, and they're almost always weaker than if you just wrote them like a normal person

yeah she never ever quits because she's a mary sue who learns the force immediately through "dumb luck" and is just generally exceptional at everything ever

this is what happens when you try "tackling gender bias", you put the gender of your character before the character itself and you end up with a stuff character
To some extent, I agree with this sentiment. I think the way to fix gender inequality in fiction (and stuffty mary sues as well) would be to get more female writers on TV shows and movies. They will naturally be able to write more realistic female characters, and the characters won't be 'forced to be female'.

doesnt have anything to so with her being a female

are you agreeing with me or did you misinterpret my post on purpose or something
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 05:47:59 PM by Rally »

i wonder if there's a tv tropes page for this, because i'm sure it's common enough to deserve one. characters that exist purely to reject traditional archetypes are really common, and they're almost always weaker than if you just wrote them like a normal person
tv tropes is leftist as forget

also putting female characters where they shouldn't does ruin stuff

aka the ghost busters movie

tv tropes is leftist as forget
oh forget.,..better call the boys in...

Men tend to like brainless entertainment- look at football, action movies, FPS games, etc. Men like to see stuff get forgeted up and don't care much for the plot provided it isn't incredibly stupid. Even then, it may still be a good movie depending on how it's marketed.

Women care more for plot development, I'd think. Anecdotally, my ex and her friends loved the movie Titanic and they watched it at least once every month together. I don't have the patience to sit through such a long movie, nor do I really care about the plot as much as they did. The most "plot intensive" movie I'd watch by choice would have to be one of the James Bond movies- they have enough action to stop me from getting bored and a plot that ties everything together nicely, in most cases (we don't talk about Moonraker).
I think this gives women too much credit. enjoying brainless entertainment is not solely a male trait - I'd say that the female version of brainless action entertainment is brainless, romantic shlock, reality television, etc. It's less about what women/men want and what is the easiest to make.  Saying women enjoy plot intensive movies more than men who just want something big and dumb seems reductive. I like my action movies to be smart and clever, just as i like my romantic, emotional movies to be smart and clever. Most people don't care though, which is why people also eat at McDonald's and go on Buzzfeed.

Also, if Bond is the most plot intensive movie you'd watch by choice, you're missin out. Check out Goodfellas, that stuff will blow your mind.

also putting female characters where they shouldn't does ruin stuff

aka the ghost busters movie

More like putting female characters into things for the sake of having a female character instead of, you know, an actual character, ruins stuff
You'd think they would've learned after Ghostbusters but holy richard

I don't get why people think we're "brainwashed" into gender stereotypes. There are definitely some things that men/women are expected of that suck but for the most part almost every guy I know likes stereotypical "guy stuff" and the same with women. I hang out with my friends and we play Halo, rock some Pantera, and make bonfires; when my sister invites her friends over they paint their nails, talk about boys, and watch rom-coms. And we weren't "brainwashed" for sure: I played barbies with my sister when I was a kid and she played my hot wheels video games. We enjoy what we enjoy but it's mostly what people think of as "gender-specific" stuff. Maybe it's just us idk

"we put rey in the movie because she was a strong female character that would never ever quit" (not exact quote)

yeah she never ever quits because she's a mary sue who learns the force immediately through "dumb luck" and is just generally exceptional at everything ever

Many such cases! - Captain Phasma was slated to be male and played by Benedict Cumberbatch and was changed literally because they "needed more female characters". Not that it mattered as she shows up for a combined screen time of like 2 minutes. Thank god Rogue One gave us a good female lead in a SW movie.