"See how machine learning is helping us tackle gender bias in movies."

[Shift Kitty]

And the reason horror movies typically have more female screentime because there's a lot of cases where it's a female that does a lot of the work and ends up surviving. Sometimes there's a guy too. The reason it's not a much larger percentage because the 'horror' of the movie is typically male and the focus of the movie.

[Ad Bot]

[Camel]

Also Master Mathew is a loving handicap. Rey and Jyn aren't any Mary Sues--they're literally generic fantasy protagonists. If they were male characters you wouldn't bat an eye. Luke is way worse than either of them.

it always bugs me because the term Mary Sue has always meant self-insert, so unless JJ's fantasy version of himself is Rey, it's just a silly trope to throw around. And i do believe people throw it around as an excuse, because someone's already done the thinking for you; you don't have to form a real argument, you just say Mary Sue and assume that's all the evidence you need.

But let's not front - luke ain't way worse than either of them. He's Luke! I've yet to see a single good argument saying Luke is a crappier protagonist than Rey, cus it's just silly.

[Tactical Nuke]

Also Master Mathew is a loving handicap.

only part of this statement that I agree with

Rey and Jyn aren't any Mary Sues--they're literally generic fantasy protagonists.

Except they are Mary Sues because they're terrible characters that are somehow the best at everything. Their weaknesses are just that -- weak.

Notice how Rey can fly the Millenium Falcon about as good as Han can upon her first time booting it up. She learns the Jedi mind trick on her own without any outside assistance whatsoever. She isn't even let on that such a thing exists before she pulls it off. She also can easily overpower Kylo Ren, one of the Knights of Ren, trained by Luke Skywalker, despite never even having held a lightsaber before. In fact, the one time she touches a lightsaber she runs away into the woods by herself out of fear. What are her weaknesses? Can you name any?
Her character flips on a dime when it's convenient for the plot. She tells BB-8 to forget off, and then about five seconds later she becomes its sole guardian. She wants to leave Jakku, then she leaves Jakku and immediately wants to go back. She tells Finn not to leave the gang, then she has the lightsaber episode and immediately runs off on her own and actively shoos away anyone who follows her.

What the forget even is Jyn's character? They save her for some reason in the beginning of the movie and she just becomes a tool for the Rebellion for the entire first half of the movie. And any character she has also contradicts itself constantly. She's mad at the Rebellion for having a hand in her father's death, then instead of holding grudges, she rallies the entire army and teams up with the guy slated to assassinate him. That's literally the next scene of the movie.

It doesn't have to be "self-inserted" to be a Mary Sue character. The definition is "idealized and seemingly perfect"; self-insertion is just one of the many enablers of a Mary Sue.

If they were male characters you wouldn't bat an eye.

what did we say about assuming

Luke is way worse than either of them.

There's a given reason that Luke is good at flying ships, and that's given in his hobby of shooting Womp Rats back on Tatooine. He also doesn't instantly master the force and is guided by Obi-wan Kenobi in his first steps, later to be trained by the master of masters, Yoda. In the first half of the original trilogy, he doesn't even use a lightsaber, he's given a blaster and he clumsily carries it around with him, only really hitting anything when at point blank range. You can see where Luke grows as a character.

Can you see that arc with Rey? I'm pretty sure she's already reached "Return of the Jedi" levels of force mastery, and she started an hour earlier at "New Hope" levels. It isn't even funny.

[Rally]

Rey and Jyn aren't any Mary Sues--they're literally generic fantasy protagonists. If they were male characters you wouldn't bat an eye. Luke is way worse than either of them.

Luke forgets up perpetually and needs help in almost every single aspect of every movie he's in. It took Luke a long time training with the loving Grand Master of the Jedi Order to learn the force and by the end of it he couldn't even use the force to lift the ship he crashed out of the swamp. Luke was also a huge childish starfish for a good portion of his character development, Rey basically had no character development at all, she was just the same brave strong bad-ass super soldier she was since we met her on some desert island where there's nothing to do all day.

Meanwhile, Rey doesn't even know the force exists one day, and the next day she's using loving Jedi mind tricks to escape Kylo Ren's prison. She stumbles across the millennium falcon trying to get off Tatooine Jakku and instantly knows how to pilot it despite having no experience. She can also pinpoint the exact problem and repair it when the millennium falcon breaks even when loving Han Solo himself couldn't figure it out. I shouldn't even have to mention defeating a Sith Lord trained by Luke Skywalker.

"Generic fantasy protagonist" doesn't work when you're pandering to the fans of an already established fantasy saga that has established rules.

If they were male characters you wouldn't bat an eye

Finn was also a poorly written character. Are you going to call me tribal now?

[McZealot]

it always bugs me because the term Mary Sue has always meant self-insert, so unless JJ's fantasy version of himself is Rey, it's just a silly trope to throw around.

Uh, Mary Sue has two meanings. It originated as a term to refer to self-insert fanfiction characters (who typically have no flaws) but now also refers to flawless characters who literally exist as a fantasy. Interestingly, the term actually originated in a Star Trek Fanfiction called 'A Trekkie's Tale' I believe.

[McZealot]

Except they are Mary Sues because they're terrible characters that are somehow the best at everything. Their weaknesses are just that -- weak.

Fantasy characters are inherently idealized versions of real people since the entire genre is based around wish-fulfillment. They both have weaknesses but there are real reasons why they would be less profound than those of Luke. Rey doesn't learn faster than Luke--she starts better than him. She grew up scavenging and fighting and was already unusually competent in physical conflicts and engineering. Not to mention she's born extremely proficient in the force, which obviously gives her a boost in areas such as lightsaber combat and using force on the guards. I'd elaborate on Jyn but that whole movie was so forgettable I don't really want to refresh myself on the plot. It's possible for some characters to actually be more capable than others without being feminist brainwashing to subjugates the male gender via idealized characters.

Bad character writing isn't neccesarily a 'Mary Sue'. The way under which the term is used is frequently really loveist. Male power fantasies are constant and all around--they have been for literally thousands of years. Whenever a modern film depicts a world in which a woman is treated the same way they are immediately called feminist idealists and terrible writers as though the fact that the character is female changes anything about the trope.

Notice how Rey can fly the Millenium Falcon about as good as Han can upon her first time booting it up. She learns the Jedi mind trick on her own without any outside assistance whatsoever. She isn't even let on that such a thing exists before she pulls it off. She also can easily overpower Kylo Ren, one of the Knights of Ren, trained by Luke Skywalker, despite never even having held a lightsaber before. In fact, the one time she touches a lightsaber she runs away into the woods by herself out of fear. What are her weaknesses? Can you name any?
Her character flips on a dime when it's convenient for the plot. She tells BB-8 to forget off, and then about five seconds later she becomes its sole guardian. She wants to leave Jakku, then she leaves Jakku and immediately wants to go back. She tells Finn not to leave the gang, then she has the lightsaber episode and immediately runs off on her own and actively shoos away anyone who follows her.

You know why she's so exceptionally powerful? Because it's a fantasy. The whole concept of fighting with laser-swords is ridiculous. Someone being born good at fighting with laser swords isn't even remotely ridiculous in context. She's good at laser-sword fighting because in the plot she was born good at that sort of thing. This isn't insane--since she's basically the most competent Jedi of her generation, it only makes sense she would be naturally proficient in dueling.

Luke forgets up perpetually and needs help in almost every single aspect of every movie he's in. It took Luke a long time training with the loving Grand Master of the Jedi Order to learn the force and by the end of it he couldn't even use the force to lift the ship he crashed out of the swamp. Luke was also a huge childish starfish for a good portion of his character development, Rey basically had no character development at all, she was just the same brave strong bad-ass super soldier she was since we met her on some desert island where there's nothing to do all day.

Luke was born as a farmer while Rey was born in a much more dangerous environment under which she actively scavenged shipwrecks for money. Is it possible that some characters are just more suited to be action heros? Rey had appropriate skills for her character. Unrealistically competent and powerful--but that is the entire nature of the fantasy genre.

Meanwhile, Rey doesn't even know the force exists one day, and the next day she's using loving Jedi mind tricks to escape Kylo Ren's prison. She stumbles across the millennium falcon trying to get off Tatooine Jakku and instantly knows how to pilot it despite having no experience. She can also pinpoint the exact problem and repair it when the millennium falcon breaks even when loving Han Solo himself couldn't figure it out. I shouldn't even have to mention defeating a Sith Lord trained by Luke Skywalker.

She figures out how to pilot the ship because she grew up working with derelict technology and was a natural engineer. Han Solo meanwhile is far more involved in the action of actually flying the thing--he never was a particularly good engineer. She gets lucky with her force-abilities, and even surprises herself by managing to overwhelm the guard with the force. This is of course within the realm of possibility, since she's probably Luke's daughter and is undisputably the most powerful Jedi of the generation. She has a natural attraction towards Luke's lightsaber so it makes sense that she is unusually proficient in combat--she was competent in battle beforehand anyway--while using said lightsaber. She wasn't outstanding and Kylo Ren was destroying her in the fight until she got lucky towards the end. Not to mention--he was injured. At his full strength she wouldn't have beat Kylo.

"Generic fantasy protagonist" doesn't work when you're pandering to the fans of an already established fantasy saga that has established rules.

Yes--generic rules that include laser-swords and space-magic. The whole idea is that Rey was born usually powerful and as is the trope in 'coming of age' fantasy tales she is realizing her power and becoming great far faster than one could in reality. That's not a "Mary Sue"--that's just a staple of the genre.

Finn was also a poorly written character. Are you going to call me tribal now?

No, just loving stupid. They're pretty much all bad characters--just not 'Mary Sues'.

[Rally]

Luke was born as a farmer while Rey was born in a much more dangerous environment under which she actively scavenged shipwrecks for money.

The only thing this means is that she should be just as exceptionally forgeted as everyone else on Jakku. Luke needed the help of several people, including Anakin Skywalker's mentor and arguably one of the best smuggler/pilots in the entire universe, to get off Tatooine. Rey is handed a hefty imperial serving of "you're forgeted" and finds her own way off the planet with one clueless storm-trooper in tow.

Rey had appropriate skills for her character. Unrealistically competent and powerful--but that is the entire nature of the fantasy genre.
She figures out how to pilot the ship because she grew up working with derelict technology and was a natural engineer.

How does pulling parts out of the same derelict crashed ship for years in exchange for pocket cash going to turn someone into a fighter pilot without actually having stepped in a ship before in their life? Sounds like stuffty, lazy design to me.

Han Solo meanwhile is far more involved in the action of actually flying the thing--he never was a particularly good engineer.

Yeah, that explains how she instantly out-smarts the combined efforts of Chewie and Han Solo, the sole pilots and engineers of the Millennium Falcon, having repaired the ship via their own competence in previous movies (with help). Not Rey though, she does it all on her own, within hours of stepping on the ship for the first time.

She gets lucky with her force-abilities, and even surprises herself by managing to overwhelm the guard with the force. This is of course within the realm of possibility, since she's probably Luke's daughter and is undisputably the most powerful Jedi of the generation.

she got lucky towards the end.

Luke was Anakin Skywalker's son, considered to be probably the most powerful Jedi that ever lived, and still required extensive training in the force before ultimately failing several times. "Muh midichlorians" can't save you here.

Yeah, "she got lucky" is basically the premise of the entire character. How is she not a slave on Jakku? Lucky. How did she randomly stumble across and then figure out how to repair the millennium falcon and evade trained imperial fighter pilots despite having never piloted before? Lucky. How does she pick up a blaster pistol and is instantly a better shot with it than the average storm trooper who does nothing but combat training their entire lives? Lucky. How does she beat a Sith Lord (who is so powerful he can manipulate loving light energy via the force) trained by Luke Skywalker, despite having 0 experience? Probably luck. In case you can't tell, this is the loving problem.

Injured my ass. Kylo's defeat came not long after defeating Finn who has a lifetime of combat experience over Rey.
Also
< stops a sniper blaster rifle bolt mid-air after being ambushed from a position out of his visual range
< fails to stop an inferior sublight bowcaster bolt, even while holding a lightsaber
'lucky'

Yes--generic rules that include laser-swords and space-magic. The whole idea is that Rey was born usually powerful and as is the trope in 'coming of age' fantasy tales she is realizing her power and becoming great far faster than one could in reality. That's not a "Mary Sue"--that's just a staple of the genre.

Anakin and Luke were both born "unusually powerful". Anakin was literally born of immaculate conception from the Force itself, do you remember what happened to Anakin? It never stopped them from having decent character design.

No, just loving stupid. They're pretty much all bad characters--just not 'Mary Sues'.

Yeah, I'm sure whatever convoluted difference there is here between 'Mary Sue' and 'hyper idealized character' isn't total semantic bullstuff. Are you seriously just grilling me on whether or not Rey is '''technically''' a mary sue or some other equivalent term?

Also Ridley's performance was bad lol. Can't really blame her though because it's hard to get in-character when there is no character.

[Mr.Noßody]

not all heroes wear capes

[e-maxx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8

[McZealot]

Yeah, I'm sure whatever convoluted difference there is here between 'Mary Sue' and 'hyper idealized character' isn't total semantic bullstuff. Are you seriously just grilling me on whether or not Rey is '''technically''' a mary sue or some other equivalent term?

It's not semantics--I'm pointing out that she comes from a fantastic world in which people are essential 'superheroes' and tend to be extremely powerful with few flaws as the very concept of their being. I guess you could say they are all Mary Sues, but since that's kind-of the point of the whole fantasy genre it falls a little flat. It seems weird and can often come off as loveist when everyone freaks about Rey's idealism while surrounded by male characters of the same quality. Yea, you make some great points about the poor quality of the writing and frankly I thought the whole film was a bit stuff (being a straight rip from New Hope) but it's weird how people obsess over one character's crappy writing while the same quality of writing covers just about all the major characters of the series.

[Rally]

It's not semantics--I'm pointing out that she comes from a fantastic world in which people are essential 'superheroes' and tend to be extremely powerful with few flaws as the very concept of their being. I guess you could say they are all Mary Sues, but since that's kind-of the point of the whole fantasy genre it falls a little flat.

Rey is significantly less of an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character in Star Wars than she would be in other genres, yes. But when we compare Rey relatively to other protagonists in the saga, her abilities and persona are unrealistically better and out of place even for the setting they occur in.

And I don't know about force-sensitives being fantastic superheroes. As a matter of fact the vast majority of them spent their entire lives trying to learn the ways of the force, only to turn out to be evil murderers, dead, or senile geriatrics exiled to desolate and remote planets. This includes Anakin, Yoda, Kenobi, and now even Luke

It seems weird and can often come off as loveist when everyone freaks about Rey's idealism while surrounded by male characters of the same quality

Well quite frankly I have a ton of negative observations about many of the male characters in the saga, the only reason I'm bitching about Rey is because she was mentioned in the article and being used as an example of how female characters should be written, which I disagree with

[RedGajin]

rey isnt thicc so her role and the movie itself sucks end of discussion

[Nonnel]

i think we should wait until the next movie for them to explain it was all because of force magic before we say she doesn't fit

[Tactical Nuke]

You know why she's so exceptionally powerful? Because it's a fantasy.

"It's a fantasy, therefore I can write as stuffty and underdeveloped of a character as I want! Character arcs? Who needs those?!"

The whole concept of fighting with laser-swords is ridiculous. Someone being born good at fighting with laser swords isn't even remotely ridiculous in context. She's good at laser-sword fighting because in the plot she was born good at that sort of thing. This isn't insane--since she's basically the most competent Jedi of her generation, it only makes sense she would be naturally proficient in dueling.

Except it is ridiculous because every single Jedi ever has needed extensive training in lightsaber combat, meanwhile Rey swings a heavy stick around like a jackass and takes out two incompetent thugs and that somehow qualifies her to take down a heavily-trained Sith lord who can stop blaster bolts mid-air and literally za warudo people at will. Mind you, with a completely different weapon, which she has never held in her life.

Luke was born as a farmer while Rey was born in a much more dangerous environment under which she actively scavenged shipwrecks for money. Is it possible that some characters are just more suited to be action heros? Rey had appropriate skills for her character. Unrealistically competent and powerful--but that is the entire nature of the fantasy genre.

"Much more dangerous"? Jakku is a knock-off Tatooine. Did you just up and forget about the Jawas that steal droids from you under the cover of night? Or the loving Tusken Raiders? Or Mos Eisley?

She figures out how to pilot the ship because she grew up working with derelict technology and was a natural engineer. Han Solo meanwhile is far more involved in the action of actually flying the thing--he never was a particularly good engineer.

Selling stuff to a junkyard owner that you found in a broken, blown up ship does not translate into flying. It may mean she knows how to fix the ship, but she literally pilots the thing as good as Han on her first go at flying ever.

She gets lucky with her force-abilities, and even surprises herself by managing to overwhelm the guard with the force. This is of course within the realm of possibility, since she's probably Luke's daughter and is undisputably the most powerful Jedi of the generation.

But we don't know that. In the context of this movie, she's completely unaware that Jedi could mind-trick people at all, and then she basically figures it out down to a T after about three tries. Meanwhile, Luke can't even do the mind-trick until the last part of the original trilogy.

She has a natural attraction towards Luke's lightsaber so it makes sense that she is unusually proficient in combat--she was competent in battle beforehand anyway--while using said lightsaber. She wasn't outstanding and Kylo Ren was destroying her in the fight until she got lucky towards the end. Not to mention--he was injured. At his full strength she wouldn't have beat Kylo.

That battle highlights the issues with the other characters as well. Kylo Ren is a raging, insecure sack of hormones who literally comes off as emo as forget, which is not what you want from a Sith lord. That may not have been the case had he never taken off his mask, which he loving shouldn't have.

Rally really covered how bullstuff the setup to that fight was better than I could by myself. One of the Knights of Ren, which has to be a badass sect of Jedi given the distinct name, trained by Luke Skywalker, the guy can literally stop a blaster bolt in mid-air coming from Poe as part of an ambush while totally unaware of Poe's location before the shot is fired. Meanwhile, Chewbacca, while he definitely is a badass, can pull off what Poe couldn't when there is no way in hell he should have been able to, given the circumstances in both cases were practically identical.

Then you have Finn, who, as a stormtrooper, has had a lifetime of intense combat training, something Rey has never even come close to, so it's at least reasonable that Finn has made it as far as he did in the movie. He gets the stuff kicked out of him by Kylo. Wounded Kylo. But somehow Rey can still overpower him.

i think we should wait until the next movie for them to explain it was all because of force magic before we say she doesn't fit

https://youtu.be/e1j7zc31CcY?t=505

[Red Spy]

Nerd debate