Author Topic: Politics Thread 2? Who are you voting for in November? (USA Only) (Read 17112 times)

Gytyyhgfffff · June 28, 2020, 10:27:42 PM

we can only tell our history through statues, unfortunately no other forms of media have been invented to keep our history for generations to come

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Aide33 · June 28, 2020, 10:30:12 PM

Quote from: Alkatjo on June 28, 2020, 09:34:25 PM

Monuments are left behind to establish history and prevent rehashes of the past. Putting them in museums only lessens the impact or the point of the statue being in a public space. These objects are here to inspire critical thinking. If a long-deceased figure in a public park upsets you, then that's on you, not the statue. You have a problem, removing the statue won't fix it. There are other alternative actions than violence against property and violence against state.

this is somehow even dumber than MMs take

these statues where not places to "inspire critical thinking" in any matter, they where place to re-indoctrinate people on the motivations of the civil war and promote a counter to the civil rights movement through the United Daughters of the Confederacy. They were quite literally put in place to deter people from advocating for civil rights just as the kool kids klub would bomb people's homes or place burning crosses on people's lawns.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy

The group was founded on September 10, 1894, by Caroline Meriwether Goodlett and Anna Davenport Raines as "the National Association of the Daughters of the Confederacy." The first chapter was formed in Nashville.[11] The name was soon changed to "United Daughters of the Confederacy."[3] Their stated intention was to "tell of the glorious fight against the greatest odds a nation ever faced, that their hallowed memory should never die." Their primary activity was to support the construction of Confederate memorials.[12] The UDC argues that its members also support U.S. troops and honor veterans of all U.S. wars.[2]

In 1896, the organization established the Children of the Confederacy to impart similar values to younger generations through a mythical depiction of the Civil War and Confederacy. According to historian Kristina DuRocher, "Like the kool kids klub's children's groups, the UDC utilized the Children of the Confederacy to impart to the rising generations their own white-supremacist vision of the future."

their entire organization was created to whitewash the history behind the civil war and make it seem like the confederacy was the good guys. these statues are in no way or form made to commemorate anyone but traitors to the united states who tried to fight the government for their right to own slaves.

Quote

According to lawyer Greg Huffman, writing in Facing South, "[p]erhaps nothing illuminates the UDC's true nature more than its relationship with the Ku Klux Klan. Many commentators have said the UDC simply supported the Klan. That is not true. The UDC during Jim Crow venerated the Klan and elevated it to a nearly mythical status. It dealt in and preserved Klan artifacts and symbology. It even served as a sort of public relations agency for the terrorist group."[7] At its 1913 annual national convention, the UDC unanimously endorsed The Ku Klux Klan, or The Invisible Empire,[54] a book written by UDC historian Laura Martin Rose,[55] then president of the UDC's Mississippi Division. Published near the height of the UDC's Confederate statue-installation and textbook-vetting efforts, the book was a supplementary reader for Southern school children.[56][57] A local chapter of the UDC funded a now-vanished[7] memorial to the Klan near Concord, North Carolina.[58] As late as 1936, the UDC's official publication featured an article which lauded the role of the Ku Klux Klan.

It's incredibly ironic that all of you are saying that taking down these statues is "erasing history" yet the reason they are up in the first place was to downplay and rewrite history in the favour of the confederacy.

SwiftHyena2593 · June 28, 2020, 10:34:09 PM

Quote from: Aide33 on June 28, 2020, 10:30:12 PM

"erasing history"

isn't that we do all the time with our search history idk why y'all are so upset about it

Master Matthew� · June 28, 2020, 11:25:46 PM

Quote from: Aide33 on June 28, 2020, 10:30:12 PM

these statues where not places to "inspire critical thinking" in any matter, they where place to re-indoctrinate people on the motivations of the civil war and promote a counter to the civil rights movement through the United Daughters of the Confederacy. They were quite literally put in place to deter people from advocating for civil rights just as the kool kids klub would bomb people's homes or place burning crosses on people's lawns.

Great. Put them in a museum. Don't destroy them.

Quote from: Aide33 on June 28, 2020, 10:30:12 PM

their entire organization was created to whitewash the history behind the civil war and make it seem like the confederacy was the good guys. these statues are in no way or form made to commemorate anyone but traitors to the united states who tried to fight the government for their right to own slaves.

Great. Put. Them. In. A. Museum.
Talk about their history, and explain why they were created.

Quote from: Aide33 on June 28, 2020, 10:30:12 PM

It's incredibly ironic that all of you are saying that taking down these statues is "erasing history" yet the reason they are up in the first place was to downplay and rewrite history in the favour of the confederacy.

Taking them down isn't destroying history. Destroying them is destroying history.
People trying to rewrite history, is history.

Put it in a museum. Explain it. But it's incredibly ironic that you're here defending attempts to erase history, with whataboutism about how the parts of history they're trying to erase were originally made to try and erase history.
Destroying statues is insane.

And on a side note, taking down statues of the founding fathers because they owned slaves is asinine. Destroying them is even worse.

They were not living in the same society we are today. Sure it would have been insanely brave and courageous to have tried to stand against slavery and take bold actions like freeing their own slaves at that point in time.
But to condemn them for not taking that action when it would have had their lives and livelihoods destroyed, is just asinine. Sorry, but every action has risks, and expecting everyone to take the leap is insane. I don't expect the average person to come out and condemn the riots or call out their motives and factions. Why? Because if they did, they'd be smeared as tribals and national socialists, their livelihoods would be destroyed, and their means of funds revoked.

I may not respect them for ignoring that action, but I'm not gonna go around and start burning all their photos and evidence of their existence.

Aide33 · June 28, 2020, 11:52:47 PM

you realize I was responding to a comment about a guy defending leaving them up right?

did i say anywhere we should purge them?

the fact that people are taking it in their own hands to removed them with ropes and jackhammer is because the state has literally defended their existence for over a century. the state is not cooperating/has not cooperated on taking them down and putting them in museums so people are getting angry and taking it into their own hands.

this is like if there was national socialist posters and statues left over from WW2(or stalin/lenin/mao memorabilia) and the state just kept saying "no" at taking them down so a bunch of people got together to take them down by force because having a statue dedicated to a dude that probably killed a lot of your family isn't really cool

Master Matthew� · June 29, 2020, 12:21:43 AM

Quote from: Aide33 on June 28, 2020, 11:52:47 PM

you realize I was responding to a comment about a guy defending leaving them up right?

did i say anywhere we should purge them?

the fact that people are taking it in their own hands to removed them with ropes and jackhammer is because the state has literally defended their existence for over a century. the state is not cooperating/has not cooperated on taking them down and putting them in museums so people are getting angry and taking it into their own hands.

this is like if there was national socialist posters and statues left over from WW2(or stalin/lenin/mao memorabilia) and the state just kept saying "no" at taking them down so a bunch of people got together to take them down by force because having a statue dedicated to a dude that probably killed a lot of your family isn't really cool

You realise something like that is usually done by community vote, right?

Aide33 · June 29, 2020, 01:11:08 AM

Quote from: Master Matthew� on June 29, 2020, 12:21:43 AM

You realise something like that is usually done by community vote, right?

yeah lets just ask the minority of jews in national socialist Germany to vote for no concentration camps

there are situations where a minority doesn't have the means to electorally do something because, guess what, they are a minority.

but just because the majority thinks that the statues should still be there doesn't mean its right. I'm not saying not to vote however, it's pretty effective in some cases, but lets be honest: these statues are up in places that have high densities of people who defend these statues being up.

it's super unfortunate for minority communities to have to be constantly reminded of how the government used to support their enslavement and a majority of the people around them defend a monument to that and hundreds of years of this have made the situation worse.

Alkatjo · June 29, 2020, 01:51:22 AM

Quote from: Aide33 on June 29, 2020, 01:11:08 AM

yeah lets just ask the minority of jews in national socialist Germany to vote for no concentration camps

what a strawman.

Quote from: Aide33 on June 29, 2020, 01:11:08 AM

there are situations where a minority doesn't have the means to electorally do something because, guess what, they are a minority.

Executive Order No. 10925, also known as affirmative action.

Quote from: Aide33 on June 29, 2020, 01:11:08 AM

it's super unfortunate for minority communities to have to be constantly reminded of how the government used to support their enslavement and a majority of the people around them defend a monument to that and hundreds of years of this have made the situation worse.

it's also unfortunate that the ""political groups"" that run these current peaceful, meaningful, and inclusive protests are also harboring some of the most tribal and bigoted people. I mean, look what loving happened the second day of CHAZ/CHOP. Segregated growing zones, tents, blocks exclusively for blacks.

The irony here is so heavy you could cut it with a knife. Please do not defend mediocrity.

Aide33 · June 29, 2020, 02:39:59 AM

Quote from: Alkatjo on June 29, 2020, 01:51:22 AM

what a strawman.

it's called hyperbole. it was just meant to demonstrate "just vote hurr durr" doesn't solve everything because a majority of people can sometimes be biased. this is literally just basic democracy. like, the majority of a population can vote for horrible things, doesn't mean it's right or it should happen.

Quote from: Alkatjo on June 29, 2020, 01:51:22 AM

Executive Order No. 10925, also known as affirmative action.

no idea how this is relevant at all to voting away statues in any way, shape, or form.

Quote from: Alkatjo on June 29, 2020, 01:51:22 AM

it's also unfortunate that the ""political groups"" that run these current peaceful, meaningful, and inclusive protests are also harboring some of the most tribal and bigoted people. I mean, look what loving happened the second day of CHAZ/CHOP. Segregated growing zones, tents, blocks exclusively for blacks.

The irony here is so heavy you could cut it with a knife. Please do not defend mediocrity.

still has nothing to do with people destroying statues because they don't want it in their community, i don't see the point in generalizing a vast swath of people that think confederate statues are bad by saying they are exactly the same as a bunch of hippy anarchists putting up tents in a park

like i completely debunked your first post where you just pulled stuff out of your ass about the statues being harmless memorials and you just try to take potshots by generalizing and making no point at all or engaging in whataboutism

Alkatjo · June 29, 2020, 04:21:57 AM

because at face value, they are literally harmless memorials. if people don't want a building or statue of a significant person, that's okay. reach out to a city official and file a claim to have it moved. sign a petition, do anything but deface the area.

Deus Ex · June 29, 2020, 05:07:33 AM

Quote from: Aide33 on June 28, 2020, 07:59:39 PM

yeah totally bro we should've kept all the swastikas and Riddler statues around Germany too or all the stalin statues in Moscow. but make sure to put a small plaque next to it to say how they were big meanies

You really gonna compare people like Robert E. Lee to Riddler? You really wanna do the whole "literally Riddler" dance? Check yourself broseph.

Furthermore, the vitriol extends far past actual war criminals. Literally anyone who's owned slaves or is just a straight up tribal as a product of the time is getting shafted. loving Washington, Jefferson statues are on the chopping block. Grant. One guy who owned slaves, helped them buy their freedom, repatriot them and dissolved his wealth upon death back into the city to finance public schooling for freed black kids and poor white kids. He's gotta go, because muh slavery.

You really need to wake the forget as to what the real discussion is. I'm tired of you and other people either pretending or being entirely unaware as to actual consequences of the actions you allow because you have a cry-boner for things we've all already deemed universally unsavory.

Deus Ex · June 29, 2020, 05:10:58 AM

Quote from: Foxscotch on June 28, 2020, 09:09:35 PM

statues are inherently celebratory you dumb hoe it doesn't matter how u """"""treat"""""" them. that is LITAERALYL their entire purpose. people do not erect statues to their villains

It literally does matter how you treat them. You loving handicap. You don't have to cum all over a statue and think it represents some great hero by default. What kind of nonsense is that? You prostrate yourself at every Jesus statue?

Aide33 · June 29, 2020, 06:54:17 AM

Quote from: Deus Ex on June 29, 2020, 05:07:33 AM

You really gonna compare people like Robert E. Lee to Riddler? You really wanna do the whole "literally Riddler" dance? Check yourself broseph.

defending the right to own another human being as a slave is on the level of Riddler or stalin yeah

Quote from: Deus Ex on June 29, 2020, 05:07:33 AM

Furthermore, the vitriol extends far past actual war criminals. Literally anyone who's owned slaves or is just a straight up tribal as a product of the time is getting shafted. loving Washington, Jefferson statues are on the chopping block. Grant. One guy who owned slaves, helped them buy their freedom, repatriot them and dissolved his wealth upon death back into the city to finance public schooling for freed black kids and poor white kids. He's gotta go, because muh slavery.

congratulations, this is why literally no one should have a statue, no one should be put on a pedestal and celebrated, literally no one is perfect and should be immortalized with public funds on public property. there is no reason for it and it just creates a site of worship for dumbasses.

like i legitimately don't understand why the forget you guys are so attached to hunks of stone or metal. its literally just a shrine bro, what are you gonna do cry and stuff yourself because you cant wake up and go to the town square and kiss a slab of marble dedicated to George Washington?

Quote from: Alkatjo on June 29, 2020, 04:21:57 AM

because at face value, they are literally harmless memorials. if people don't want a building or statue of a significant person, that's okay. reach out to a city official and file a claim to have it moved. sign a petition, do anything but deface the area.

at face value they are reminders of literal slavery. again, it being legal or defended by the state doesn't mean its right.

JumboMuffin · June 29, 2020, 07:49:35 AM

a statue is built to glorify someone, especially when they are presented in grandeur. memorials commemorate, not statues

Master Matthew� · June 29, 2020, 09:04:10 AM

Quote from: Aide33 on June 29, 2020, 06:54:17 AM

like i legitimately don't understand why the forget you guys are so attached to hunks of stone or metal. its literally just a shrine bro, what are you gonna do cry and stuff yourself because you cant wake up and go to the town square and kiss a slab of marble dedicated to George Washington?
at face value they are reminders of literal slavery.

They're reminders of the people who founded the nation.

The reason these statues are important and what's happening to them is important is because it indicates what it to come.

And I don't want to here "slippery slope fallacy" bullstuff. The amount of times I've called out a slippery slope and I've ended up at the bottom of the slide is asinine. I said it was a slippery slope to allow censorship of actual neo national socialists, and now we're censoring people on Twitter for posts as simple as "okay man." Or flat out censoring the president.

Their intentions are clear. They wish to remove the statues because all they see is the bad, none of their accomplishments. None. What Washington and Jefferson and Lincoln did was overwhelmingly good. They may have had their errors, but surely so do those who are tearing down these statues.

It began with "just the confederates" now it's between "well they were slave owners" and "this is a monument to a white savior complex." And it likely ends with removal of these figures in history textbooks and works for similar reasons. Because we're already seeing similar censorship in media.

As a side not if you illegally take down a statue, enjoy your prison sentence.

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Author Topic: Politics Thread 2? Who are you voting for in November? (USA Only) (Read 17112 times)

Gytyyhgfffff

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