Author Topic: Why does no one use the creeper gamemode anymore?  (Read 4226 times)

Someone made a creepkill lawnmower if I remember correctly.

So Lord Tony PM'd me 2 or 3 days ago to point me to this thread with the question of why people don't play this anymore, as if I decided it for them.

Well Tony, if I must attempt to answer your question, I would suggest that in general people are not very good at level design and generally didn't figure out how to make good arenas, and those with potential were usually squandered when bad creeper settings were chosen. Even when it was popular, I rarely had any real fun with it except on my own server or with a lot of meddling on my part on receptive players.
Most people weren't even really willing to throw together even the most rudimentary arena, which is kind of the opposite of my entire design philosophy, i.e. this is blockland and if no creative building is involved what's the damn point of playing. This philosophy has been reflected in my other major mods, Rise of Blockland and Bot Wars. The novelty is gonna wear off pretty fast if you're not trying out different arena concepts like castles and boats and space stations and what-have-you.
As far as bad settings, most people tended to put the settings to extreme values and ignore the ones in the middle, when really I kind of found what was the most fun in the most situations and used that as the center point (except for growth speed, whose default is the fastest speed, and pretty much the cap of what BL can handle on most machines). People would set health and regen to the highest and then got frustrated when they couldn't really fight back at all and were basically playing passive keep-away... when that's the type of gameplay that such ridiculously high health and regen settings are FOR. They would set the hunting behavior to laser-guided and then die because there was no real way to set up a defense anywhere... well yeah, if you give an FPS bot total aimbot power, and your goal is a real battle and not a game of hide and seek, then you're being an idiot.
I never saw an obstacle course with no creepkilling weapons with a button at the end that would kill all the creeper and declare the players winners. I never saw consumable bomb stations where you could press a button once to destroy all creep in a wide area around the station, but it wouldn't work again until it was reset with a wrench after the game was over. I never saw trolly challenges where you had to get across a field of 1x1s but a random selection of them have been turned raycast off and creeper will pop out of them as you hop across. I never saw anyone doing any of the cool emergent stuff I expected to see when I gave people this kind of thing. The whole mod made me kind of disappointed in BL players in general. :\

I remember being holed up with like 4 guys in one of the "two ships" rooms shouting encouragement at them because i was the new captian (old one died, was mr wallet I think).
I posted a teaser topic for the mod about that session which you can all enjoy reading here.

Someone fairly recently asked me if I could make this work on a dedi with no admins connected as a self-repeating thing and I turned him down because I couldn't be bothered. But, if there's really this much interest in the mod, I might be convinced to put a little work into it, especially if the ratio of demand to work involved is very high. So no promises, but put in your two cents of what you'd like to see, and if anything sounds particularly interesting or is requested repeatedly... maybe.  :iceCream:
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 04:43:12 AM by Mr. Wallet »

I did try some ideas, namely creep in vents and having to clear them out, but in general you're right wallet.

Maybe this should be an idea topic.

Right now im hosting a creeper server.

Its a rather small map.


I can't host but if anyone wants to "fight the Kraken" I can give em this longship save


People should lay off RPs and host more things like this.

I love Creeper Gamemode :U.

It could use some custom models for the creepkill, etc.

those last two builds need to be hosted more often and/or dedi.

also plz post longship save




Here's some ideas I thought up of just now:

death run mix with creeper to prevent camping on either side.

Creep lab, with lab doors between sectors and a main spawn room where people can organize creep removal squads. Basically my old creep lab save but improved. Have labeled sectors, dark hallways, and vents where the creep come from, which you must clear out in order to win. Promote strategy and teamwork through attacking a sector from two ends, having team members cover each other as they move in (ie one takes the walls and ceiling while the other covers the ground for him)

Race to the top, where people have to battle creeper while going up the building. On reaching the top, can "escape" using a helicopter, which activates a creep-clear bomb in the center of the building, winning the level.

Mix with zombie campaign/survival, or TDM. May not work in some cases though due to game mode confliction, but worth mentioning anyways.


I myself will work on the creep lab idea as it was pretty popular back its day.

http://www.mediafire.com/?z9kqurklhgss6g2

'tis the longboat save you asked for Conan.

Uncompress that wienerschnitzel and enjoy.

So Lord Tony PM'd me 2 or 3 days ago to point me to this thread with the question of why people don't play this anymore, as if I decided it for them.

Well Tony, if I must attempt to answer your question, I would suggest that in general people are not very good at level design and generally didn't figure out how to make good arenas, and those with potential were usually squandered when bad creeper settings were chosen. Even when it was popular, I rarely had any real fun with it except on my own server or with a lot of meddling on my part on receptive players.
Most people weren't even really willing to throw together even the most rudimentary arena, which is kind of the opposite of my entire design philosophy, i.e. this is blockland and if no creative building is involved what's the damn point of playing. This philosophy has been reflected in my other major mods, Rise of Blockland and Bot Wars. The novelty is gonna wear off pretty fast if you're not trying out different arena concepts like castles and boats and space stations and what-have-you.
As far as bad settings, most people tended to put the settings to extreme values and ignore the ones in the middle, when really I kind of found what was the most fun in the most situations and used that as the center point (except for growth speed, whose default is the fastest speed, and pretty much the cap of what BL can handle on most machines). People would set health and regen to the highest and then got frustrated when they couldn't really fight back at all and were basically playing passive keep-away... when that's the type of gameplay that such ridiculously high health and regen settings are FOR. They would set the hunting behavior to laser-guided and then die because there was no real way to set up a defense anywhere... well yeah, if you give an FPS bot total aimbot power, and your goal is a real battle and not a game of hide and seek, then you're being an idiot.
I never saw an obstacle course with no creepkilling weapons with a button at the end that would kill all the creeper and declare the players winners. I never saw consumable bomb stations where you could press a button once to destroy all creep in a wide area around the station, but it wouldn't work again until it was reset with a wrench after the game was over. I never saw trolly challenges where you had to get across a field of 1x1s but a random selection of them have been turned raycast off and creeper will pop out of them as you hop across. I never saw anyone doing any of the cool emergent stuff I expected to see when I gave people this kind of thing. The whole mod made me kind of disappointed in BL players in general. :\
I posted a teaser topic for the mod about that session which you can all enjoy reading here.

Someone fairly recently asked me if I could make this work on a dedi with no admins connected as a self-repeating thing and I turned him down because I couldn't be bothered. But, if there's really this much interest in the mod, I might be convinced to put a little work into it, especially if the ratio of demand to work involved is very high. So no promises, but put in your two cents of what you'd like to see, and if anything sounds particularly interesting or is requested repeatedly... maybe.  :iceCream:

It's not that we didn't want to, we couldn't. The creeper is rather kind of dumb as it doesn't try to find a way around something, it just goes straight through.

or you could had made it possible for creeper to become more mobile. It can't go left or right on vertical angles.

Is that a bug introduced with a new version of BL? Creeper never had any problems going laterally across walls.

Haven't used creeper recently, but it isn't hard to test. I don't think anything new in BL would break just the lateral movement; if it did the normal movement or vertical movement would be broken as well.


Just speculation from a person very inexperienced with torque script; it just makes sense to me considering how coding goes

Easy to test, but you underestimate my powers of laziness.  :cookieMonster:

The special thing about lateral growth on walls is that it's the only situation where the brick creation is definitely 100% not legal for a player planting a ghost brick, because it's "floating". Badspot changes how brick groups work every other patch so it's not a stretch to think he might have tweaked brick planting in a way that would break my force-plant method.

Someone PMd me about the possibility of raising the speed that creeper grows, and it's a popular enough topic that I figured I would make my response an open one so everyone can get a little perspective on why the limit is there. Specifically, it suggested:

Quote
This could work by looking at average tick speed (use a 1-ms schedule loop and see how much the getSimTime() deviates from 1 MS per call) as well as clients (make sure clients aren't at a getPing() of 2361) to determine how much faster or slower the server needs to be to get the optimal speed.

In short, Torquescript is not set up to accommodate this kind of mod. I've done a lot of "cheating" to make it run as well as it does, but some boundaries just didn't seem worth trying to skirt around.

Having an accurate clock mechanism based on torquescript is one of the hardest things I've ever pulled off (for Rise of Blockland, and that was every 6 minutes and didn't need to be millisecond-perfect). Not only is the engine very inaccurate about schedules, but it tends to throttle their rate to around 35Hz even when it's running at nominal sim speed; the max speed on creeper is set to 50Hz to make sure that it's absolutely going to go as fast as it can. The normal speed on creeper is set to faster than Blockland will theoretically allow.

The only way I can think of to exceed the current speed on creeper is to either increase its growth per tick to beyond 1x1x1 bricks, which is Not Fun (I tried it), or to split the growth into multiple schedule threads. Given that creeper already had to be optimized to hell and back in its growth methods just to hit the basic schedule cap, it didn't seem worth my time to try and do this. First, it would be an enormous amount of work. Not only would I need to keep track of the multiple threads and make them start up and shut down together, I would need to make sure their player-hunting behavior and valid growth searches were working together so that I wouldn't be recalculating stuff needlessly. It would be extremely bug-prone and I would have no way to test it because I do not have the hypothetically-fast-enough computer in question. Finally, and this is the kicker, I'd be doing all this for like, 2% of users. 5% of hosts, tops. I've gotten a faster computer since I made creeper and this one isn't fast enough. There's no way I'm going to do all that work, bug-prone with no way to properly test it, for almost nobody to use.

This is a case of people wishing for something that is technologically infeasible. This is related to fluid simulation problems, which are also notoriously difficult for computers (most video games don't have realistic fluids that can pour and splash, in case you didn't notice - the ones that do tend to do nothing else, because every precious bit of CPU is being used on the fluid). It's really a matter of cheating out as many calculations as you can get away with before the whole thing stops doing what you were going for entirely.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 08:15:25 PM by Mr. Wallet »

Oh, that makes sense. Well, it's already fast enough as it is already; just some people don't realize that the growth is in multiple directions, not just one. When focused down to laser guided or related accuracy, it's pretty darn fast, but doesn't spread laterally

I'll try to remember to look into that.

The player-hunting behavior was actually one of the tricks I used to get around the growth speed issue. If I could just make it grow really really fast that would never have been added.