Author Topic: Define Atheism.  (Read 7500 times)

If 90+% of the world were skiers, and harrassed, excluded, or otherwise discriminated against non-skiers, if skier parents disowned their children for being non-skiers, if skiers lobbied support of laws that give them favor over non-skiers, then you might have a decent argument. But none of these things are true for skiers vs non-skiers as they are for religious populations vs non-religious populations.
The Skier brown townogy makes this really funny for some reason

First of all, Christians (maybe even Protestants in general) don't have bishops and stuff, that's just Catholics and Lutherans iirc.
The Anglican Church (The biggest Protestant Church in the world) has Bishops and Arch-Bishops and it's head is the Queen of England.
Christian Cults have religious leaders, and hierarchies towards them, as do many sects.
Furthermore you get unofficial leaders, who act as preachers and command great deals of respect among their followers, solely because they preach their religion.

This is true not only in Christianity but many religions.
Muslims have Mosque leaders.
Jews have Rabbi's who lead their Synagogues.
Buddhist Temples have high Monks. Tibetan Buddhism has the Dalai Lama.
In Tribal culture there are Shaman's and Wise Women who lead the tribes.

Every religion has some leader. Whether they're an important historic figure, a member of the religion who guides others in the religion, a high-priest who claims appointment by God, or even God itself.
Jesus and Buddha also existed.  The people just follow some of the things that they taught.  Kind of like atheists follow some of the things that have been taught by many different people.

I guess you could say religious people follow one or few leaders while atheists follow many different leaders who are usually unrecognized (authors, philosophers, whoever else they follow).
This is also incorrect.
Atheists do not follow anyone.
Just because someone writes atheist philosophy it doesn't make them a leader to all atheists. It doesn't make them a leader at all.
They don't have any jurisdiction over other atheists because they've written and shared their opinions.

Other Atheists (a massive minority) might quote certain atheist authors in order to back up their personal views, but this doesn't make that person their leader.
In the same way that Christians might quote certain religious philosophers and theologians, but those people aren't leaders to them. They don't do as they say.

They solely use what they have said as a way to explain their views, because explaining such fundamental and philosophcial views is difficult. And if someone has said what you believe in a clear and understandable way, then you might as well repeat them, because it's easier than fumbling around trying to explain your view by yourself, where you might make mistakes and confuse people.


Atheists, as a whole do not follow people.
Generally as a whole, theists don't even have to follow people. Religions however do.

Atheism is just the act of not believing in a deity (or theist God).
You are getting Atheism confused with the sub-culture of people that are also Atheists, but are also usually anti-theists, and make it a goal of theirs to spread atheistic views. These people do look up to certain philosophers and scientists and authors as leaders. But that doesn't make those people the leaders of Atheism or Atheists as a whole.

The large majority of Atheists do not think about being Atheist.
In the same way, the large majority of theists do not think about being theist.
It is just a view you have, which sits in the back of your mind. It might mean you follow certain practises, or enjoy certain things, but it's not the guiding thought in the mind of every person.
People who do have it as their guiding thought and do everything single thing by it are the minority.
And it is because of those people that religious people get their image tarnished, as people assume they are extremists, and so too do atheists, as people (like yourself) assume they all live, breath and sleep atheism.
You are not allowed to call yourself an atheist is you believe in a deity, thus making it a requirement, which also makes it a group.  If you believe in a deity or supreme form, you have to call yourself religious.
No, that's completely wrong.
I understand what you're getting at, but just because there is a "requirement" doesn't make it a group.
It's also not a requirement, but a characteristic of Atheists.

In the same way that I am White because I have White skin. To be White you have to have white skin, but that's a characteristic. You wouldn't call it a requirement, because it's not a group you join. You're either White, or you're not.
The only difference here is that you can change from a theist to an atheist. But nothing changes about you when you do that other than your opinion of the world. There aren't any rallies, or exams or entrance requirements. No one organises entry. People don't even have to know you're now an atheist.

That is why I consider myself agnostic, because I don't want to be assumed as that kind of person.
lol, what
agnosticism is a real thing. with a definition. you can't call yourself something that doesn't apply to you just because
if you're an atheist, you're an atheist. not agnostic

-snip-

Yeah I guess I can understand what you're getting at.  On leaders, I don't really follow anyone.  I guess God can count, but there's no one actually visible on Earth that I follow.  Anytime I go to a church, I don't really look at the pastor/speaker as a leader in religion, but rather just as someone who brown townyzes scripture and shares his findings, interpretations, and research.

I also wasn't aware that there was a distinct difference between atheists and anti-theists.  I was certain that both meant that a group who is either against/doesn't believe in religion.  I understand that the prefix "ante-, anti-" means "against" in Latin, so that's pretty much a given.

I don't really like the brown townogy on the "being an atheist" part though.  It is wrong to call yourself an "atheist" when you do not believe in an existing higher form, so I consider that to be a "requirement", not just a characteristic.

I also wasn't aware that there was a distinct difference between atheists and anti-theists.  I was certain that both meant that a group who is either against/doesn't believe in religion.  I understand that the prefix "ante-, anti-" means "against" in Latin, so that's pretty much a given.

Atheist is just lacking belief. Anti-theism is a subset of atheism where you not only don't believe, but you also are against religion. I think.

It is wrong to call yourself an "atheist" when you do not believe in an existing higher form,

I think you made a typo.
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in an "existing higher form", so did you mean to say that it's wrong to call yourself an atheist when you do believe in one?
or maybe atheist to theist, whatever

if atheism is not believing in a god then satanism is a form of atheism

this is because in satanism you dont actually believe/worship satan, its basically just a tongue-in-cheek way of opposing christianity.
its really interesting.
there are people who actually worship satan

If 90+% of the world were skiers, and harrassed, excluded, or otherwise discriminated against non-skiers, if skier parents disowned their children for being non-skiers, if skiers lobbied support of laws that give them favor over non-skiers, then you might have a decent argument. But none of these things are true for skiers vs non-skiers as they are for religious populations vs non-religious populations.
Die ski-scum

No.

I was just going to say this.

There's gnostic atheists and agnostic atheists.  Big difference between the two.

Gnostic and agnostic are modifiers of the word athiest. They do not change the definition of the word athiest. Regardless of if you are a gnostic or agnostic athiest, you are an athiest. Just like there are tabby cats and black cats, both are still cats. The word cat has a definition, just as the word athiest does. SeventhSandwich is still correct.

I also wasn't aware that there was a distinct difference between atheists and anti-theists.  I was certain that both meant that a group who is either against/doesn't believe in religion.  I understand that the prefix "ante-, anti-" means "against" in Latin, so that's pretty much a given.
I don't know how well the term "anti-theist" is in circulation, but it is a good term. And it is seperate from atheist.

Consider that an atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in God.
As I said earlier that can be because they've never considered the concept of God, or because they find reason to not believe in a God.

But being an atheist goes as far as that. There's nothing more you have to do or be like in order to be an atheist. That's why it's not a group, it's just a characteristic.
In the same way that there are people who like Coffee and people who don't. You wouldn't call Coffee-likers a group, because they don't do anything and only share the characteristic of liking Coffee. There can be any number of differences within the collection of people who like Coffee, such as liking certain blends, or only drinking certain amounts of it. There's little to no connection between Coffee-likers besides liking Coffee.
(The same is true of being a theist. You can believe in a God and therefore be a theist, but you're not part of a group, because there's no connection between you and other people besides believing in a God)


An anti-theist however is a step further. To be an anti-theist you do have to be an atheist. But being an atheist doesn't make you an anti-theist.
An anti-theist takes their atheist view (that there is no God) and then goes on further to disagree with the act of people being theists. They do not like that people are theists, and they do not like religions.
Anti-theists are the people who will attempt to "convert" you from theism to atheism. And anti-theists often end up styled in a manner similar to a religion. They can often revere prominent philosophers and authors and out-spoken atheist/anti-theist scientists.
In this way they very easily get seen as being like a religion.

And unfortunately, most anti-theists only identify as atheists. And they're not trying to convert people to anti-theism, only atheism. So when religious people see this, they get confused and believe that Atheism is essentially a religion.
Despite anti-theists being a minority among atheists, they make the biggest stink, and give atheists a bad name. And the way they behave means that atheists get categorised and people make assumptions about them. Which is very unfair, because as noted above, the only defining quality about atheism is not believing in a God. That's their only connection to each other, so to assume they are all the same is very misguided.


In essence, this is a direct reflection on Theism, Religion and Extremism.
  • Theists believe in a God. That's all.
  • Religions believe in a God, they have practices, rituals, leaders and hierarchy, and often a Goal (which is usually to join with God, whether through knowledge of God or through worship of him and avoiding sin).
  • Extremists believe in a God, and they follow a Religion. But they go a step further, and find any other religion, or atheism to be against their religion, and worth attacking. They also insist that other people follow their religion precisely.


With Atheism it's almost the same, but misses out Religion.
  • Atheists do not believe in a God. That's all.
  • Anti-theists do not believe in a God. But they go a step further, finding any religion, or theism to be immoral and wrong, and worth attacking. They also insist that other people join them in disbelief in God.



They're essentially the same, with Anti-theists being close to Extremism. The only major difference here is that because the widespread advent of Atheism is new, and it hasn't had ancient practices like religion, which do get mixed up and were designed for different societies, anti-theists don't tend to get violent. There's not usually a quote of religious significance that can be interpreted to be a demand for violence, which religious extremism can.
That said though, Religious Extremists don't have to be violent. They can be identical to anti-theism, simply being pushy and rude on other people. Consider the Westboro Baptist Church as an example of that.

I don't believe in anything
but, I think that atheism is more likely to be true
I'm pretty sure that makes me an agnostic atheist??

pastafarian

im probably agnostic theist
only if you count believing in not a superior figure but simply luck.

I don't believe in anything
but, I think that atheism is more likely to be true
I'm pretty sure that makes me an agnostic atheist??

Yeah, pretty much.

im probably agnostic theist
only if you count believing in not a superior figure but simply luck.

I'm not sure that exactly counts...

Dooble, I really like what you've written here. While I believe there is such a thing as agnostic vs. gnostic atheism (personally, I'm agnostic atheist; I don't believe there is a god, but I don't KNOW there isn't), I really like your deism vs. theism argument. I would say I'm an agnodeistic atheist, then - agnodeistic because I'm unsure about a deistic god, as I don't really have trouble with the fact that a being (I want to avoid saying god here because it has certain implications I reject) caused the Big Bang, but I strongly disbelieve in a theistic god, miracles, an afterlife, the supernatural, etc.

Yes,  I am perfectly aware that agnodeistic is not a word. Deal with it.

Misread as "Define autism"

I think you made a typo.
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in an "existing higher form", so did you mean to say that it's wrong to call yourself an atheist when you do believe in one?
or maybe atheist to theist, whatever

Yes that was a typo, my bad.

I don't believe in anything
but, I think that atheism is more likely to be true
I'm pretty sure that makes me an agnostic atheist??

I don't really like how people throw the word "agnostic" around.  My dad's mother is agnostic.  She says that she thinks there's a possibility that a god or supreme deity exist, but she isn't sure what to believe, so she calls herself agnostic.