Author Topic: SPO's Destiny RPG Server [Heavily WIP, Complete Overhaul]  (Read 9711 times)

A game where grinding is the superior method of progression is mechanically broken.

Grinding is literally doing the exact same thing with the same strategy over and over again to progress with little to no variation. This doesn't mean a recurring theme or gameplay element, this is strictly relating to methods players use for progression.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 11:35:30 AM by otto-san »

A game where grinding is the superior method of progression is mechanically broken.
The fact is that for any RPG sort of game you have to stats with caps that are relatively difficult to reach. I'm not sure it is possible to create enough unique situations to get through all of the levels without any sort of grinding, or even without intense grinding.

And to respond to your statement here, I think if grinding isn't the superior method it might be broken. Grinding is superior purely because higher level things are superior. I'm not sure how you balance this without making progression in the game worthless. How would you even propose putting an end to grinding in an RPG?

EDIT: I've thought one. Make an RPG entirely quest based, where you can make it from 0 to hero through questing. Because of the unlimited length, complexity, difficulty, structure, and content of quests, you might be able to come up with a unique experience every time.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 01:09:45 AM by Doomonkey »

I think you may be thinking of an RPG model that lends to grinding by design.

To avoid it entirely, you have to design the game with avoidance in mind. It isn't necessarily about making situations vastly differ; that's a fix method on an already-broken mechanic. It all depends on the game at hand.

I don't think it's ever okay for grinding to be the most widely-used method of progression. It makes the players' experience repetitive and monotonous. If players are grinding because they aren't rewarded enough, there may be a general balancing issue. If players are grinding because the main methods of progression are too tedious or difficult, you may have an incentive problem or a broadly confusing design entirely. You have to think bigger than DRPG for this.

I don't think it's ever okay for grinding to be the most widely-used method of progression. It makes the players' experience repetitive and monotonous. 1) If players are grinding because they aren't rewarded enough, there may be a general balancing issue.2) If players are grinding because the main methods of progression are too tedious or difficult, you may have an incentive problem or a broadly confusing design entirely. You have to think bigger than DRPG for this.

1) Players are grinding because they are rewarded enough. Like I said before, grinding is a product of the mentality and truth that doing things in the most awful, boring, least attractive, yet most direct way will pay off in the end. Unless you provide a more direct/more efficient way to get better at mining than mining, then people will grind. If you make grinding not pay off by removing the power of high level items, then you break more than you fix.

2) Players are grinding because that is the main method of progression. Once again, to learn mining you do mining.

Both of my responses assume that mining is boring and grindy. Can you propose away to make mining not boring and grindy? Can you point out any RPGs without grinding?

Unless you provide a more direct/more efficient way to get better at mining than mining, then people will grind.

2) Players are grinding because that is the main method of progression. Once again, to learn mining you do mining.
Exactly. People grind because the game is broken and fails to provide a better way of progression. You need to get rid of the flawed model entirely before you can get rid of the issue.

Both of my responses assume that mining is boring and grindy. Can you propose away to make mining not boring and grindy? Can you point out any RPGs without grinding?
You don't start from DRPG. You make something new, and you don't worry about what you know. DRPG is already broken; there's no point in trying to fix it. If you're speaking generally, then there's plenty of room because you're starting from square one. The way that's right depends on how it would fit into the specific game.



I'm not trying to argue. I think it's easy for it to come across as that, but I really just want to discuss this topic. Im sorry if I sound rude or if I'm not understanding your point properly.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 11:49:23 AM by otto-san »

Exactly. People grind because the game is broken and fails to provide a better way of progression. You need to get rid of the flawed model entirely before you can get rid of the issue.
You don't start from DRPG. You make something new, and you don't worry about what you know. DRPG is already broken; there's no point in trying to fix it. If you're speaking generally, then there's plenty of room because you're starting from square one. The way that's right depends on how it would fit into the specific game.
I'm just having trouble thinking of a way to do things that don't eventually turn into grinding. Every MMO that pops into my mind is grindy (not saying that those are necessarily good games), but Runescape and Maplestory are, and even though I have never played WoW, I am pretty sure it can be grindy at times. Even Dwarf Fortress's adventurer mode can be grindy, the saving grace here is that almost every encounter is exciting and different because of RNG and you typically don't live long enough to encounter boring repetition.

It seems to me like a quest model of leveling would solve the issues. Furthermore, it seems to me like it would be able to work with DRPG. I don't get the statement that DRPG is broken, start over. Honestly, all DRPG contains is different levels of items, stats, a rudimentary way to raise those stats, and a nation system. I understand how having only the method of raising stats already present in DRPG can be boring, but you could certainly put a better method over the top of it. It isn't like it is awful to have grinding as on option, it should just be a bad option.

I'm not trying to argue. I think it's easy for it to come across as that, but I really just want to discuss this topic. Im sorry if I sound rude or if I'm not understanding your point properly.
No, me too.

Runescape is probably the best example of a game that's tried to 'fix' its mechanics. In Runescape, there are interesting quests and minigames that can you can do to train skills instead of just grinding (and i haven't played very recently, but i've heard it's just getting easier and easier). This is a noteworthy solution to an extent, and it's fairly effective if you can pull it off, however, you end up running into another issue if you rely too much on it for too long and continue to add onto the game. There actually ends up being "too much" to do. It sounds really dumb to say that, since surely more stuff to do is better, but it can begin to feel like there's too much going on at once. It easily becomes overwhelming if there's too much variety, but if you can keep it in the sweet spot, it could definitely work.

I suppose, really, it's not so much about simply removing grinding, but making the more repeated activities interesting and evolving with the player. You can't let the task become essentially muscle memory. Minecraft isn't the best example for game design, but mining in it is oddly hypnotic. You can end up mining for hours because the player can't predict all the cards they're being dealt. There are well-implemented external unknowns involved. You don't know what's behind the curve, and you can't be sure of your surroundings. Maybe the mining itself can be considered grinding, but your brain is focused on several other things at the same time. It'd be hard to make a non-linear game with little to no repetitiveness, so instead, you keep the player conscious and entertained.



sorry again pass; it's a sickness

There is already a quest eventing system implemented. We plan on adding interactive dungeons and simple location to location quests to give you a bit of a boost here and there.

There is already a quest eventing system implemented. We plan on adding interactive dungeons and simple location to location quests to give you a bit of a boost here and there.
are you going to continually ignore me?  I would prefer if my code is being reused to at least get some credit

are you going to continually ignore me?  I would prefer if my code is being reused to at least get some credit
He's not a very bright person so you'll be lucky of he does listen to you.

He's not a very bright person so you'll be lucky of he does listen to you.
Don't talk about my son that way.

He's not a very bright person so you'll be lucky of he does listen to you.
why are you a consistent richard to me on the forums but nearly kiss where i walk in game? i don't get it.

drpg was supposed to be hosted like a week or two ago but our coder let us down and never provided.
we're working on finding a new coder.

im always available, and considering i've pretty heavily edited drpg in the past for you, i think i can handle it

im always available, and considering i've pretty heavily edited drpg in the past for you, i think i can handle it

didn't you like make some goofy backdoor or something