What is your stance on abortion? (Abortion discussion)

[Ipquarx]

Scientific evidence for the fact that human fetuses are human?

The fact that they are human is not disputed. Human fetuses are human.

The question is whether a fetus has a right to life that is greater than the mother's right to have an abortion.


Does a human have a right to life from conception? Or is there a time, when it is still only an embryo, where it is acceptable to abort? When does it become unethical?

These are very highly disputed questions, even among people who are capable of forming solid arguments on both sides, and this isn't a subject I would ever willingly bring up with the Blockland community. I don't know why this thread is here.

I agree with this entirely, it all boils down to what your opinion is and will never truly be resolved.

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[Teneksi]

Religion complicates things further. At what point does a human have its soul?

This being the Blockland forums, I expect almost everyone to say that doesn't matter, but it does. You can't ignore religious perspectives when you're talking about an issue that affects as many people as abortion does.

[Harm94]

Religion complicates things further. At what point does a human have its soul?

This being the Blockland forums, I expect almost everyone to say that doesn't matter, but it does. You can't ignore religious perspectives when you're talking about an issue that affects as many people as abortion does.

This post needs a trilby.

[Teneksi]

This post needs a trilby.

Issue too complicated... must find way to... ignore everything

[McJob]

Anyways, I'd like to know where your argument comes from.  I noticed on your profile that you said you were from Australia.  I am aware that Australia manages itself with compulsory elections, rather than voluntary elections, and although America and Australia were identified in a study exceeding 40 years to be the most culturally similar, there must be some sort of line drawn that distinguishes social and political liberties.

You are at liberty to knock down any false assumptions I may have, but my guess is that your position grows out of the idea that there is a need for compulsory social programs.  I don't necessarily disagree with you—some such programs have proven to people's benefit.  All things considered, however, the idea of compulsory educational programs for expectant parents might be problematic and a funnel for funds, not necessarily a waste.  For instance, mothers' opinions are not guaranteed to change during the informative process.  Even if the end result is the same as they wanted originally, it would accomplish at least two things.  The first is that it put the parent(s) through unnecessary schooling.  The second is that it could be used as a tool to place liability on the parent(s).

I think my argument comes from all the research I've been doing in education, and how I would like to change the education system because I believe it to be rather pathetic as-is. This is a subject for another topic; but I basically believe that if it was actually done better, education could improve far more people's lives than it's currently doing.

Those are very good points and I'm having a little difficulty refuting them. In many cases, the reason education slips by people is because (essentially) there was no motivation for the student to take on the material and grok it to their long-term memory. As far as the first thing, I would believe that it'd be up to the doctor or whoever runs the investigation to make it feel important to the people who are thinking about childbirth, however you accomplish that. That's not really the best answer or solution, but it might potentially work. As for the second one, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that, as far as if I like it or not. I think it's actually important that parents who want to have a child are ready to take liability for whatever damages they cause by not raising the child in an appropriate manner that benefits the child and benefits society.

Again, I'm not sure if I've been answering in a way you want, but still feeling a bit woozy so hopefully this can suffice.

Also this thread really upped your posts per day stat lol.

this means from now on I've got a big quota to fill  

thats why this thread is my fave

very cheeky

[Epicduke]

op why did you name this a "discussion" if you're only going to debate half-assly
call it what it is

[Harm94]

Issue too complicated... must find way to... ignore everything

There is a better a better than just being all like "Religion in a primitive outdated concept, stop forcing your beliefs on me! MY WAY IS BETTER PLEBIANS!" This is something that both extremists theists and atheists fail to grasp. You are both stuck up on your high horses fighting over someone's beliefs on how every thing was made. Suppose If a god does exist, we cannot judge her. Maybe god is a sympathetic being who weigh the circumstances rather than enforcing some black and whites laws. Maybe he is not real, okay then, one less person born I guess.

Like I said earlier, abortion should be okay as long as it for rape, presents a danger to the mother, or done before the third trimester. It's her body, I doubt she would be a good mother in the first place if she never wanted to be one.

[Teneksi]

"Religion in a primitive outdated concept, stop forcing your beliefs on me! MY WAY IS BETTER PLEBIANS!"

But this is not what I said. I said considering religion makes it more complicated, and that we can't ignore it. I was assuming that my audience was primarily atheist, and trying to explain part of how there is so much ongoing debate.

Simple answers aren't necessarily better. I'm not saying religion is outdated or unnecessary. If I was being an extremist atheist I would be saying it should not matter, but I'm saying it has to be a consideration.


Part of the problem with the whole issue is people's tendency to assume extreme views; pro-life or pro-choice (which implies anti-life and anti-choice on the other side). When I said religion made it complicated, I presume you immediately pictured me as someone with a much more extreme stance on religion. What's worse is you associated that with an unfortunate choice of hat. You instantly discounted everything I was saying based on a snap judgement and a trope.

If we're going to have a half-decent discussion about issues like this we're going to have to stop categorizing everyone into extremes to try to make the problem clearer.

[dkamm65]

There is a better a better than just being all like "Religion in a primitive outdated concept, stop forcing your beliefs on me! MY WAY IS BETTER PLEBIANS!" This is something that both extremists theists and atheists fail to grasp. You are both stuck up on your high horses fighting over someone's beliefs on how every thing was made. Suppose If a god does exist, we cannot judge her. Maybe god is a sympathetic being who weigh the circumstances rather than enforcing some black and whites laws. Maybe he is not real, okay then, one less person born I guess.

I interpreted his post as saying religion makes discussing the issue complicated. How people feel about abortion is deeply tied to their religious beliefs. It didn't come off as mocking the existence of religion at all to me.

It seems to me like you saw the word 'religion' and had a knee-jerk reaction to it.

[Derontchi]

op why did you name this a "discussion" if you're only going to debate half-assly
call it what it is

I'm making valid arguments with the little time I have inbetween classes.

So, it's a discussion.

[Oasis]

You're all missing the point that an individual's religious beliefs should only effect their decisions, it should not effect the legal system that encompasses us all.

Bringing religion into the abortion debate is as stupid as bringing religion into the gay marriage debate, the teaching evolution in schools debate, etc.

[sir dooble]

So my view is that the woman has the right over her body up until the development of the baby reaches the point at which the baby could survive independently of the mother.
At 24 weeks of development the child is capable (with extensive support) of surviving outside of the mother.
At this point the baby has the right to a chance to live.

In extreme circumstances however I believe it is acceptable that a woman can terminate her pregnancy after 24 weeks.
These are circumstances where a baby can be identified as having various diseases or physical abnormalities.
This includes cases where the baby hasn't formed properly and will not survive after birth.
It also includes cases where a baby will have severe mental disabilities that will greatly impact its life, particularly its quality of life. This includes diseases like Downes Syndrome, which does impact quality of life and length of life.

I pretty much support the Abortion Act 1967.
As far as religion goes, it is your right as a religious person to choose to not have an abortion.

But it is the right of a woman to choose if she wants to have an abortion. If abortions do not fit into your religious worldview, you have no right to prevent other people from having abortions.
Believe what you want, but you can't enforce your beliefs on other people.

[dkamm65]

Bringing religion into the abortion debate is as stupid as bringing religion into the gay marriage debate, the teaching evolution in schools debate, etc.

But you have to understand that people identify very personally with their religious beliefs. For many, it's the most important thing in their life. To go against that can cause a deep inner turmoil that will definitely come out in their opinions on such sensitive subjects.

I say this as a pro-choice Atheist, by the way.

[Oasis]

But you have to understand that people identify very personally with their religious beliefs. For many, it's the most important thing in their life. To go against that can cause a deep inner turmoil that will definitely come out in their opinions on such sensitive subjects.

I say this as a pro-choice Atheist, by the way.

I do understand... I'm not forcing religious people to have abortions. I'm saying that any religion's beliefs should not dictate what is legal and what is not.

[Derontchi]

I do understand... I'm not forcing religious people to have abortions. I'm saying that any religion's beliefs should not dictate what is legal and what is not.

Even as a person of religion, I agree that it has no place in these debates, but there are plenty of other arguments that don't include religion for abortion being illegal.