[TRIGGER WARNING] how does religion exist in educated first world countries?

[TristanLuigi]

While that is true, when parents teach their kids about their religeon (most of the time) it really is to set them on the path to be a good person that lives a good life.
Not following this advice, to the parents, mean their kid is not going to live such a good life.

I edited my post, take a look at it. Regular advice always applies, while religious advice only makes sense within its own belief system. It's sort of a catch-22 in that indoctrination will only help your child within that religious framework, while they only believe in that framework because of said indoctrination.

[Ad Bot]

[XR-7]

It is forcing it down their throats, though. And the fact that the kid isn't going to even consider resisting is the worst part.

You wouldn't outright tell your kids which political party they should vote for at a young age. Why would you do that for religion? I'm very grateful towned my parents for not forcing their politics and religion onto me.

So what would you suggest a parent do while they attend a church? Leave the kid out in the car?

Often times even if it's not the intention of the parents to force it onto them that's quite often the effect it has. Skeptics do frown at deliberate forcing though, of course. Young children are a lot more impressionable, critical thinking faculties haven't been developed yet, and they'll basically believe whatever they're told if they're told it enough (Santa, case in point.) These beliefs are a lot harder to shake even if they're completely and totally illogical, like so illogical they don't even begin to make sense. I'm talking the-earth-is-flat, homeopathy treatment level illogical. Especially for something that isn't actually falsifiable like religion, even when they're older they'll often only consider changing their minds if they see something which actually directly contradicts their beliefs that a god exists and will end up holding onto that belief simply because they were taught it from a young age.

That's what schools are for. They teach kids that religion is subjective and present scientific theories that, if true, could completely vanquish a lot of statements from religious works. Any kid who is capable of growing up will eventually run across doubts and have no idea which to believe. At that point, they can either not care (agnosticism I guess...not quite the right word though) or search for evidence supporting either side and decide which makes the most sense. In your case, science makes sense and religion doesn't. For extremely conservative bible thumpers, science doesn't make sense and religion does. I just kinda stand somewhere on the middle ground.

[Moppy]

I edited my post, take a look at it. Regular advice always applies, while religious advice only makes sense within its own belief system. It's sort of a catch-22 in that indoctrination will only help your child within that religious framework, while they only believe in that framework because of said indoctrination.

Well see, the thing you're not getting is that those who are religeous actually believe their religeon to be true.

If you believe something to be truth, it doesn't matter if it doesn't work under other's beliefs. Truth is constant.

[TristanLuigi]

So what would you suggest a parent do while they attend a church? Leave the kid out in the car?

It really isn't my problem what their specific belief requires them to do.

That's what schools are for. They teach kids that religion is subjective and present scientific theories that, if true, could completely vanquish a lot of statements from religious works. Any kid who is capable of growing up will eventually run across doubts and have no idea which to believe. At that point, they can either not care (agnosticism I guess...not quite the right word though) or search for evidence supporting either side and decide which makes the most sense. In your case, science makes sense and religion doesn't. For extremely conservative bible thumpers, science doesn't make sense and religion does. I just kinda stand somewhere on the middle ground.

The problem is that this requires students to actually question their beliefs when presented with this. This occasionally happens, but usually the contradiction between evidence and personal belief just sits peacefully in their mind and they don't really worry about it, while at worst they will completely ignore everything that contradicts their beliefs.

Well see, the thing you're not getting is that those who are religeous actually believe their religeon to be true.

If you believe something to be truth, it doesn't matter if it doesn't work under other's beliefs. Truth is constant.

Right, but parents have to think whether the advice is general or religious. It doesn't matter if they think it's true, they should see if the same advice holds for all religions. Praying to Jesus, even if true, is not philosophically independent. It's not good advice for a Muslim, Hindu, or atheist. Eating veggies is never going to be bad advice.

[XR-7]

It really isn't my problem what their specific belief requires them to do.

Then why complain about it? I would think that putting the kid in Sunday School while the parents go into service is a completely normal thing to do.

The problem is that this requires students to actually question their beliefs when presented with this.

I don't see how this is a problem at all. Questioning your beliefs to find yourself and your ideals awards individuality and purpose.

[dirtymurphy]

Yeah it is, but it is interesting to talk about.

of course. one can also find happiness and direction in life with religion. it isn't solely an explanation to why things work like hillkill was saying. we don't even know exactly how or why we got here and religion provides an answer to that so that kind of debunks op's entire argument.

there isn't concrete proof that god isn't real, but there isn't really proof that a god exists.

if you meant to say that there isn't concrete proof that god is real but there also isn't proof that a god isn't real then you already gave yourself an answer in the op.

tldr: hillkill is an edgelord whos smarter than everyone else

[TristanLuigi]

I don't see how this is a problem at all. Questioning your beliefs to find yourself and your ideals awards individuality and purpose.

You misunderstood me. It is a great thing to do and it's rewarding... but I meant to imply that it is also very rare.

[XR-7]

it is also very rare.

Source?

[hillkill]

tldr: hillkill is an edgelord whos smarter than everyone else

wow way to take the leap to an overstatement from one sentence. the topic isn't really a question, it's more of a debate thread.

[TristanLuigi]

Source?

Personal experience, so admittedly not a very good source. But, really, what I've seen so far of public school outside honors classes is people that don't give a stuff and don't pay attention.

It's almost midnight, so I'm going to bed. School tomorrow. Nice chat, though!

[Drydess]

Personal experience, so admittedly not a very good source. But, really, what I've seen so far of public school outside honors classes is people that don't give a stuff and don't pay attention.

It may be regional, I see a lot of people practically trying to play inquisitor for their religion.

[Moppy]

Right, but parents have to think whether the advice is general or religious. It doesn't matter if they think it's true, they should see if the same advice holds for all religions. Praying to Jesus, even if true, is not philosophically independent. It's not good advice for a Muslim, Hindu, or atheist. Eating veggies is never going to be bad advice.

See that doesn't work because that assumes all the advice, practice, and philosophy of all religeons should sync up and all the advice, practice, and philosophy that doesn't work with each other doesn't count.

But if you believe one of these to be true, naturally contradictions between religeons will pop up.

For instance, it is mandatory for Musilms to pray 3 times a day toward Mecca. If a Muslim parent teaches their children this, is it wrong since it doesn't work for Christians or Hindus?

Or how about an athiest parent teaches their kids that there is no God, and that they should never pray. Is this wrong because this doesn't sync up with the Buddhists or Pagans?

Parents teach their children what they know or believe to be true. This is not wrong, and is in fact good in most cases. It's part of the freedom of religeon thing that America has going.

[dirtymurphy]

wow way to take the leap to an overstatement from one sentence. the topic isn't really a question, it's more of a debate thread.

maybe it was a bit much. still though, you're obviously implying that if you're religious and live in a first world country you're not very smart.

[Moppy]

maybe it was a bit much. still though, you're obviously implying that if you're religious and live in a first world country you're not very smart.

Yeah, that's true. However, if it is a legitimate question he has, then it deserves to be met with an answer.

Or in this case, a dozen answers of variable ferocity.

[TristanLuigi]

Fine, one more response, then bed.

See that doesn't work because that assumes all the advice, practice, and philosophy of all religeons should sync up and all the advice, practice, and philosophy that doesn't work with each other doesn't count.

But if you believe one of these to be true, naturally contradictions between religeons will pop up.

For instance, it is mandatory for Musilms to pray 3 times a day toward Mecca. If a Muslim parent teaches their children this, is it wrong since it doesn't work for Christians or Hindus?

Or how about an athiest parent teaches their kids that there is no God, and that they should never pray. Is this wrong because this doesn't sync up with the Buddhists or Pagans?

Parents teach their children what they know or believe to be true. This is not wrong, and is in fact good in most cases. It's part of the freedom of religeon thing that America has going.

Yes, it is wrong. In both cases, including the atheist. Atheists are not exempt from "no indoctrination." (And FYI, Buddhists don't pray. They don't actually have any deities.)