Author Topic: [TRIGGER WARNING] how does religion exist in educated first world countries?  (Read 29052 times)

I'll bite.

Okay, cool.
Just a notice: I'm gonna post this in multiple parts because I don't have the time to amalgamate everything I know about this stuff into one post right now. I'll do this part for now, and I'll post more if people want more. This will probably help compartmentalize discussion too.
One more thing: I am not a scientist, nor have I any science based education beyond high school. There will be times where I have very little idea of what I'm talking about. Still, I stand by my arguments as legitimate, so please consider them as such.  I will try to cite sources when I can be bothered to. If you see that I'm saying something incorrect, do not hesitate to correct me, as some of you, I'm sure, will vigorously and violently do so.
EDIT: I didnt realize this might be necessary, but the ultimate goal for my arguing against Evolution is to discount it as a scientific replacemnt for a creator God.


First, lets lay down the groundwork as to what evolution is. Evolution is the concept of something, usually a life form, changing over time to adapt to its environment. This is usually done through survival of the fittest, in which animals that have certain traits that allow them to live better and longer will pass down their genes, whereas animals that have disadvantageous traits will likely die before they can have children, thus eliminating their genes from the pool of that area.

There are two kinds of evolution:
Microevolution, which Darwin observed of the finches of the Galapagos islands. This kind of evolution pertains to variations within a species. For example, going back to Charles Darwin's observations, on different parts of the Galapagos islands, there are different kinds of foods that a readily available. The finches he observed had different beaks depending on which part of the island he was on, and which foods were available for the finches to eat. This is the result of the natural selection, allowing some birds to live and thrive with certain beaks, and other birds to die. This is immediately observable, and I have no qualms with this kind of evolution, as it obviously exists. The other is
Macroevolution, which scientists believe was the means of development of all modern life. This kind of evolution transcends species, and causes new kinds of life to form. For example, some scientists believe that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Through millions of years of micro evolution and thousands of small changes, we end up with a totally different product. This is the evolution we're dealing with here.

TL;DR, Microevolution is contained to species, Macroevolution transcends species.

Alrighty then, lets start at the beginning. The dawn of life on earth.
Now, scientists have conflicting theories of how the matter for life came to earth. Some say it came through meteors or other space debris that pelted the earth as the solar system was still young. In any case, the theory of macroevolution starts with the earth having a pool of organic matter in which form amino acids, which eventually forms DNA, which eventually form cells. Once enough cells form, the eventually bond together and start interacting with each other, giving way to small life forms which eventually grow into progressively bigger and more cohesive life forms until you have something like fish or plants, and then you go on from there.

TL;DR, A pool of organic matter on early Earth mixed with the atmosphere and energy spawned amino acids that spawned DNA, then cells, and eventually, life forms..

The first problem with this theory is how any amino acids form in the first place. After all, they are the building blocks of life, and nothing living is without them. The common reference to how the amino acids formed is famous "Life in a test tube" experiment, or the Miller-Urey experiment, an experiment that brought Evolution to true prominence in the scientific community. In this experiment, the hypothetical environment of early Earth is simulated in a controlled environment. In a nutshell, various gasses that scientists believe composed early Earth's atmosphere, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen, are put into a bulb with some water. The water is heated and vaporized and sent through a pipe along with the gas mixture into another bulb with two electrodes firing electric sparks between each other, which simulated lightning, which people speculate the energy for the amino acids forming reaction came from. This energy causes a reaction to happen with the gasses, which then bond and de-bond as per the nature of their reaction, and they form amino acids. The amino acids then drop down along with the water vapor into a trap below the electrode bulb, allowing for itself to sit there while more form, while the water to cycles through and the process goes on. Eventually, 20+ amino acids formed in the trap. This experiment is still widely used in arguments for evolution. I'm sure you are have at least a passing familiarity with this experiment, Mr. Ipquarx, whom I hope is still reading.

TL;DR, The Miller-Urey experiment, widely held as the experiment that kicked off the modern study of evolution, formed amino acids by zapping the gasses thought to be the atmosphere of early earth and trapping them in some water.


There are a few problems with this experiment which make it somewhat problematic. I will cite these sites which I draw most of my arguments from up front. Yes, I know that you can tell right from the names that a couple of these are biased sources, but they draw their arguments from very valid and highly accredited sources that they cite so I don't have to cite all of those individually.
http://www.creationbc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=122&Itemid=62
http://creation.com/life-in-a-test-tube
http://www.astrobio.net/topic/solar-system/earth/geology/earths-early-atmosphere/
Right, onward.

The first problem with this experiment is the trap. The trap in the apparatus serves as a sort of resting place for the amino acids so that they can be safe and stationary for observations sake. However, the trap serves a secondary purpose of protecting the amino acids from being destroyed by the electrodes. As you know, energy can just as easily create as it can destroy. If the amino acids are left in the electrode chamber, they are destroyed and are useless. The trap protects them from this, but there is no actual trap on earth that would protect them from the lightning or other energy that caused the reaction in the first place. This would cause the amino acids to be destroyed just as much as, if not more so, than they would be created. There needs to be a lot of amino acids to be present for life to even begin happening, so the odds aren't looking so good for life so far.

TL;DR, The electric energy that causes the amino acids for form can just as easily destroy the amino acids if they're unprotected, which they would be under the hypothetical circumstances.

The second problem is with the atmosphere. As of recently, the scientific community agreed that the various gasses that composed early earth had a lot less methane and ammonia than previously thought and instead contained mostly carbon dioxide and nitrogen, much like the atmosphere of our Earth today. This poses a lot of problems with the Miller-Urey experiment, since it was reliant on those gasses being there. There have been experiments done with these gasses, and the resulting amino acids have been much more sparse. Again, the less amino acids there are, the less likely life is to form.

TL;DR, The gasses used in the experiment are now not believed to be the atmosphere of early Earth, making the production of amino acids much harder.

The third problem is that the resulting amino acids. Not all amino acids that exist are useful for life. There are specific groups that have nothing to do with forming DNA in cells, but the most prevalent group produced int he Miller-Urey experiment are the L and D amino acids. Every amino acid that was formed in the experiment was formed in pairs, the L and the D, which appear to be mirror images of each other in terms of composition. The problem is that the D amino acids are completely useless in terms of creating life. This, among other eliminating factors, essentially cut the count of useful amino acids in half, which further decreases the odds that any kind of life would emerge from such conditions.

TL;DR, Not all amino acids are useful, and roughly half the amino acids formed in the Miller-Urey experiment would not help in forming life.


Essentially, when you consider all of these factors that diminishes the count of potential useful amino acids, you find that it is very unlikely that life could form from the primordial soup that so many believe it did. This is a problem for macroevolution, since this is how life started in the first place according to the theory, and it is partly why I find macroevolution to be so hard to believe.


FINAL TL;DR, The way evolutionary scientists propose that life formed in the first place is extremely unlikely to the point of being implausible. This shows that evolution is fundamentally flawed, as the very origin of life cannot be explained without inconsistency or error.

Sorry to hit you guys with a freaking highschool science paper.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 02:36:33 AM by Moppy »

ok so cite your sources for the existence of God.

FINAL TL;DR, The way evolutionary scientists propose that life formed in the first place is extremely unlikely to the point of being implausible. This shows that evolution is fundamentally flawed, as the very origin of life cannot be explained without inconsistency or error.

Sorry to hit you guys with a freaking highschool science paper.
err, no. the concept that we know how life came to be is fundamentally flawed, based on what your saying. the concept of evolution isn't disproven by not knowing how it started. not understanding how life came to be doesn't make the jump from dinosaurs to birds impossible (your example), and is pretty contradictory to how the skeletal structure of the two are extremely similar.

don't get me wrong, i totally respect that information and assuming that it's all true i learned something from it. but unless im misunderstanding it then i dont think it has so many far reaching implications as you're making it out to have

ok so cite your sources for the existence of God.
bible tho.

But seriously, there really isn't any technically aside from the Bible and people's personal testimonies, which could be discounted depending on who you trust. However, if science does not support evolution either, then the idea of intelligent design becomes much more plausible. After all, if this world and life did not happen by chance, then it must have been built by someone.

err, no. the concept that we know how life came to be is fundamentally flawed, based on what your saying. the concept of evolution isn't disproven by not knowing how it started. not understanding how life came to be doesn't make the jump from dinosaurs to birds impossible (your example), and is pretty contradictory to how the skeletal structure of the two are extremely similar.

don't get me wrong, i totally respect that information and assuming that it's all true i learned something from it. but unless im misunderstanding it then i dont think it has so many far reaching implications as you're making it out to have
I understand this, but this is merely the start of my argument. The idea that we evolved from amino acids to cells to life forms is fundamental to evolution as a worldview, as it explains where the life came from to evolve. Without it, evolution is not so much an explanation of the origin of life as it is merely just some process that happens. If there is another explaination of how life started leading up to evolution as it functions in the way we observe it today, then I would love to hear it.

Also, this is not the end of my arguments. I just need to do my homework and go to bed at some point, and I'll get around to doing the rest at a later time if people are not already too bored with what I've got.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 01:31:51 AM by Moppy »

I understand this, but this is merely the start of my argument. The idea that we evolved from amino acids to cells to life forms is fundamental to evolution as a worldview, as it explains where the life came from to evolve. If there is another explaination of how life started leading up to evolution as it functions in the way we observe it today, then I would love to hear it.

Also, this is not the end of my arguments. I just need to do my homework and go to bed at some point, and I'll get around to doing the rest at a later time.
I still don't see how that invalidates the rest of the theory. By your own admittance it already happens on a local level (microevolution in your post) so I really don't see how the jump from that to the complete changing of animals is any different given such a large amount of time.

I still don't see how that invalidates the rest of the theory. By your own admittance it already happens on a local level (microevolution in your post) so I really don't see how the jump from that to the complete changing of animals is any different given such a large amount of time.
The impassible jump for me is that there has never been any evidence that an animal has trancended species into another, completely different species. A bird cannot evolve into a non-bird, a fish cannot evolve into a non-fish. The idea that an animal can evolve to transcend its own species is crucial to macroevolution. There have been no evidences of this ever happening, as we have found no intermediary species. I'll probably bring this up in more detail if I ever get the time to make the second part.
Also where did the animal come from in the first place?

The idea I'm trying to debate with here is that evolution is a valid replacement for intelligent design. Evolution cannot replace a creator.

Evolution isn't an origin story. It doesn't really explain the origin of ALL life. But anyway, micro evolution has been proven, so logically macro evolution can occur. To deny that is like saying you can count from one to ten, but not from ten to one-hundred.

FINAL TL;DR, The way evolutionary scientists propose that life formed in the first place is extremely unlikely to the point of being implausible. This shows that evolution is fundamentally flawed, as the very origin of life cannot be explained without inconsistency or error.
unlikeliness does not mean it's wrong
I don't think anyone is under the impression that life is incredibly common in the universe. like, as far as we know, it's literally just on our planet. given that and the amount of time our world has existed, any unlikeliness is pretty easily excused. like when someone wins the lottery, which is very unlikely, it doesn't mean they cheated, they just got lucky. maybe the earth got lucky
also, that doesn't have anything to do with evolution
There have been no evidences of this ever happening, as we have found no intermediary species.
yeah we have. you see them like every day
fish are intermediary between microscopic life and amphibians. or, one lizard is intermediary between two other lizards
there doesn't need to be anything between those levels. if there were, you'd just say the same thing, that there was no intermediary between the intermediary one and the next species, and you could do that forever regardless of how deep it gets
you don't see them because they died. they didn't have the advantages that the next species had, but still lived where they were needed, so they died off, especially in the face of competition from the next species

There have been no evidences of this ever happening

Aside from the massive amounts of actual evidence, what about things like Neanderthals? Were they just created and left to die out then, just a one time thing?

Look bro i just got done disproving this kid in the youtube comments about this stuff, i am too lazy to type it all out again

The point about the bulb is silly.
Of course being struck by lightning again could destroy amino-acids.
But we are talking about amino-acids forming in a super-massive ocean. We already know that the chances of lightning hitting the exact same place twice (without conductors) is very low.

If amino-acids formed as a result of lightning strikes, which were very common in the earliest stages of earths history, then thousands or millions could form over time. But that's still not densely-spread throughout the world, so the chance of them being destroyed is low.

You then only have to wait (possibly hundreds of thousands or even millions of years) for these amino-acids to start binding to each other, forming enzymes and even DNA, at which point they are self-replicating.

unlikeliness does not mean it's wrong
I don't think anyone is under the impression that life is incredibly common in the universe. like, as far as we know, it's literally just on our planet. given that and the amount of time our world has existed, any unlikeliness is pretty easily excused. like when someone wins the lottery, which is very unlikely, it doesn't mean they cheated, they just got lucky. maybe the earth got lucky
also, that doesn't have anything to do with evolutionyeah we have. you see them like every day
fish are intermediary between microscopic life and amphibians. or, one lizard is intermediary between two other lizards
there doesn't need to be anything between those levels. if there were, you'd just say the same thing, that there was no intermediary between the intermediary one and the next species, and you could do that forever regardless of how deep it gets
you don't see them because they died. they didn't have the advantages that the next species had, but still lived where they were needed, so they died off, especially in the face of competition from the next species
As I understand your argument, you're saying that that because life exists on earth, then it must have happened the way I described.  That sort of doesnt make sense. I'll use the od turtle on a fencepost illustration.
If there's a turtle sitting on a fencepost and nobody saw how it got there, you could presume that a strong wind blew it up tere, or that the turtle has learned to climb the fence post. However, these are extremely unlikely scenarios. You cant argue that because the Turtle is up there that therefore it must has gotten up there because of the wind. Effect alone cannot imply causation. If that were the case then I could make up whatever origin of life, no matter how unlikely, and say that it must be how it happened because life already exists.

As for the second argument, there really isnt any evidence of an intermediet species existing at any point. You say that such species already exist, but there arent any species that trancend the boundries of species that I am aware of. You say that fish are the intermediary between microbes and full life forms, but we have no such evidence of a single or multi celled microscopic life forms becoming anything bigger or more animal life. We have no record one has existed in the past. There are tonnes of fossils that serve as permanant evidence that a species exists. Archeologists have been digging these up a good few centuries by now. If there was an intermediet species then it should have showed up in the fossils by now. After all, if the process of macroevolution takes milions of years, there's a huge window of time for fossils of such species to form. Why are they non-existant?

Evolution isn't an origin story. It doesn't really explain the origin of ALL life. But anyway, micro evolution has been proven, so logically macro evolution can occur. To deny that is like saying you can count from one to ten, but not from ten to one-hundred.
The reason why I cannot make the leap from microevolution to macroevolution is because there is no evidence that a member of a certain species has evolved into a totally new species. A bird can evolve into another bird, a lizard can evolve into a different lizard, a dog ca. evolve into different dog, but a fish cannot evolve into a mammal. This is the basis of macroevolution and I cannot find evidences for this.
The point about the bulb is silly.
Of course being struck by lightning again could destroy amino-acids.
But we are talking about amino-acids forming in a super-massive ocean. We already know that the chances of lightning hitting the exact same place twice (without conductors) is very low.

If amino-acids formed as a result of lightning strikes, which were very common in the earliest stages of earths history, then thousands or millions could form over time. But that's still not densely-spread throughout the world, so the chance of them being destroyed is low.

You then only have to wait (possibly hundreds of thousands or even millions of years) for these amino-acids to start binding to each other, forming enzymes and even DNA, at which point they are self-replicating.
Ah yes. Leave it to Sir Dooble to come up with a dang good argument. I see your point here, and I have no rebuttle. It sounds reasonable to me.
My other points still stand as great problems in the way of this theory.

If there's a turtle sitting on a fencepost and nobody saw how it got there, you could presume that a strong wind blew it up tere, or that the turtle has learned to climb the fence post. However, these are extremely unlikely scenarios. You cant argue that because the Turtle is up there that therefore it must has gotten up there because of the wind. Effect alone cannot imply causation. If that were the case then I could make up whatever origin of life, no matter how unlikely, and say that it must be how it happened because life already exists.

someone put the "turtle" there ( ͡o ͜ʖ ͡o)

someone put the "turtle" there ( ͡o ͜ʖ ͡o)
You're catching my drift. ;)

someone put the "turtle" there ( ͡o ͜ʖ ͡o)

But how did that someone learn to pick up the turtle????