Author Topic: [TRIGGER WARNING] how does religion exist in educated first world countries?  (Read 28988 times)



See, it's not a thing where we see something weird and unexplainable that we just assume "God did it" and we just move on. Actually, I shouldn't say that, because there are people like that, but it doesn't apply to everyone who believes in God/a god. People who make this "argument" are really stretching towards ad hominem.

was more of a response to
If we cannot explain how life came to exist as we know it through modern, secular science, then it cannot be a substitute for a creator god.


Another thing to chew on pertaining to evolution is that even if mutations happened to the point of an animal being unable to breed with its previous species, there would have to be another animal with the same mutation at the same time in the same vicinity and somehow end up being the same species as the former mutated animal. They would then have to breed and successfully raise young in a likely brand new instinctual way and all of those young would have to reach loveual maturity and remain in the same area until that point and breed with each other to keep the species running.
That's not how it works.
Only one individual requires the mutated gene to pass it on. That gene simply has to be dominant.
Even if it is recessive, it may eventually appear down the line in offspring under the right circumstances.
The mutations are often subtle and likely to occur in multiple members within a generation too. It's not like one member of the species is born with an additional limb.

Furthermore, it would generally seem that new species don't exist at the same time as the old one.
For example, our direct ancestors are no longer here. Our cousins however, who are also related to those ancestors (such as apes), are still here.
The reason for that is because our direct ancestor species died out. Those of them that had evolved and adapted successfully became us. Those without the right adaptations died off, and that species is gone.

We wouldn't need to compete with our ancestors, because the entire population was either composed of them, or composed of the transitional species, or composed of us. This is because evolution takes place over tens of thousands of years at a minimum.


As for the breeding, nothing is going to change. Chances are we would breed and raise our young just as our direct most ancestors did. Perhaps ever so slightly differently.
Even in behavioural means, evolution takes place slowly. It's not a case of the next generation is instantly different and doing things completely differently.

One thing you should know though is that space is very big.

There are at least (maybe more) 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the galaxy, each with usually one planet, and easily more. Even if the chances of developing life were maybe 1 in a trillion, you're still going to have at least 100,000,000,000,000,000 stars out there with some life floating around them.

The thing is too, even if the odds are so horribly stacked against life happening, it obviously happened. Some people do end up winning the powerball of life.
People need to stop making this argument. You cannot say that because something exists, therefore the cause of it must be what they say it is. In that case, you can make up whatever origin of the universe you want and say it's the way it happened because the universe exists.
I don't want to be offensive or anything, but the Bible is far from historically accurate. When we can carbon-date dinosaur remains to be 65 million years old or more, and use radiometric dating to age the Earth itself as at least 4.6 billion years old, the "historical accuracy" of the earth being created 10,000 years ago is extremely false, even as we have found tools created by early humans to pre-date that by far and away.

That doesn't mean that you can't believe in creationism though. One common argument is that thousands of years for us may be mere seconds for a deity or god. Maybe planting some adams and eves happened to us some 300,000 years ago, which could've been a few weeks on god's lovey Fireman of the Earth calender. It's just extremely ignorant to take a several thousand year old book as undeniable fact when it's been proved wrong in that facet.
I'd argue that Carbon dating and other decay based dating methods are flawed.
The way it works is that Carbon-14 isotopes are in  organic materiel while it is still alive. After death, these unstable isotopes will eventually decay away. However, because carbon-14 has a half life of 5730 years, measurements of objects older than than a certain age (wikipedia says about 50,000 years) will have such miniscule amounts of carbon-14 that the possible methods of measuring them become extremely inaccurate, so the millions of years are one of a myriad of flawed mathematical outcomes. Carbon dating cannot possibly measure anything to be so many millions of years old.
Also, the bible is not only historically accurate in that regard, but in the rest of the Bible's myriad of stories that link up with history as we know it.
if we can't explain how life came to be

then the answer to the question "how did life come to be" is

"i don't know"

you shouldnt default to "GOD DID IT" when you come across something unexplained like the origin of the universe or the origin of life or whatever the forget because nobody will beat you up if you say "i dont know"
Well how do you know that he didn't? If some fantastic book written by 40+ authors over ~8,000 years comes along stating the origin of the world along with the rest linking up to historical events in complete consistency, than why shouldn't I believe it? They were a lot closer to the beginning of the world than I am, after all.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 08:45:19 PM by Moppy »

Carbon dating cannot possibly measure anything to be so many millions of years old.
You're actually correct about that. I made an assumption that they use carbon dating for dinosaur remains.

Potassium-Argon Dating or Relative Dating (seeing how old the rocks nearby are in essence) are methods used for bones that old.

Might wanna fix your formatting on that post though lol

if mutations happened to the point of an animal being unable to breed with its previous species
Well it's a good thing that "if" isn't the case then, isn't it?
Again, a species A does not birth a species B. That's been stated several times in the past few pages.

nice strawman

nobody is saying A will give birth to B

we're saying A gives birth to A' gives birth to A'' gives birth to A''' gives birth to A'''', but A'''' is so different from A that they can't breed with eachother so A'''' is a different species and is renamed as such: B
A and A' can breed
A' and A'' can breed
A'' and A''' can breed
etc
but A and A'''' can't
And these seperate "A"s are many generations apart

god's lovey Fireman of the Earth calender.
Why does God have a "lovey Firemen" calender?
Is God gay!?

(that's a joke...)



(wikipedia says about 50,000 years)
The same article also says immediately after that "although  special preparation methods occasionally permit dating of older samples"
Also, carbon dating isn't the only method available for dating...

Well how do you know that he didn't? If some fantastic book written by 40+ authors over ~8,000 years comes along stating the origin of the world along with the rest linking up to historical events, than why shouldn't I believe it? They were a lot closer to the beginning of the world than I am, after all.
Because significantly more than 40+ authors, in thousands of books, with rigorous work can tell you otherwise.
They are a lot more educated on the way the world works than I am, and than any of those men from the last 8000 years are.

And, they're still around to challenge their own ideas, and to be challenged.

You shouldn't take what they say as guaranteed fact. But they're a more credible source than any other.


Why does God have a "lovey Firemen" calender?
Is God gay!?

(that's a joke...)
Sorry mates, I messed up the formatting of my post, please take another look.

Why does God have a "lovey Firemen" calender?
Is God gay!?
First thing he makes that he talks to is a naked man with no shame of being naked.

I think the answer is obvious.

Okay, I'll bite. ;)
But just one more time.
You're again confusing abiogenesis and evolution. Life did not evolve into existence, it came into being by random chance in specific areas that had specific conditions, according to 'secular' theories. THEN, and ONLY then did evolution start. The actual process of abiogenesis was very short, it starts the moment before the first lifeform was made and ended the moment it was made. So like, maybe minutes or hours at most compared to thousands or millions of years. What you're thinking of is either the billions of years required to evolve from the first lifeform to humans, or the billions of years required to go from the big bang to the earth forming and abiogenesis occuring.

And I did say it wasn't the main threat. The main threat is the conjecture that the universe is 6-10k years old is completely unsupported. There are dozens upon dozens of dating methods, one of which is Einstein's theory of relativity itself.

This includes Carbon-14 dating, Urianium-Lead Dating, Potassium-Argon Dating, Rubidium-Strontium dating, Cepheid Star Dating, Cosmological Redshift dating, and so on and so on. I could go into detail explaining them all but I think the most simple one to explain is Cepheid Star Dating, so I'll try that one.

There are many kinds of stars that we can see, and one of them is called a Cepheid variable. It's a star that pulsates rapidly. They've been extensively studied and they're very easy to spot, even from an incredible distance away. It also happens that there's a direct relationship between their pulsing and their intensity/brightness.[1]

There's also a very direct relationship between the distance to an object and its brightness:

Where B is the brightness and D is the distance to the object.

Since we can easily observe how they pulse, and we know the relationship between pulsing and brightness, we can determine what the original brightness is. We now know 2 out of the 3 variables and can solve for D:


Now when we actually apply this formula to say, find the distance from here to the Andromeda galaxy, we get a distance of around 2.5 million light years. Since a light year is the distance light travels in a year, it takes 2.5 million years for the light to get here, putting a lower bound (the universe cannot be younger than this) on the universe of 2.5 million years, which is well over 10,000 years. There are other methods which prove it's even older but they tend to be much more complex because you have to work with the more complex mathematics of general/special relativity.

if we can't explain how life came to be

then the answer to the question "how did life come to be" is

"i don't know"

you shouldnt default to "GOD DID IT" when you come across something unexplained like the origin of the universe or the origin of life or whatever the forget because nobody will beat you up if you say "i dont know"
This exactly. Just because we don't know doesn't imply we "NEED" a creator to explain it. Besides, we know for sure that it can happen naturally, that's the one thing that the miller-yuri experiment did prove. We just don't know the exact process of chemical reactions that led to it.


Yo The actual process of abiogenesis was very short, it starts the moment before the first lifeform was made and ended the moment it was made. So like, maybe minutes or hours at most compared to thousands or millions of years. What you're thinking of is either the billions of years required to evolve from the first lifeform to humans, or the billions of years required to go from the big bang to the earth forming and abiogenesis occuring.

This exactly. Just because we don't know doesn't imply we "NEED" a creator to explain it. Besides, we know for sure that it can happen naturally, that's the one thing that the miller-yuri experiment did prove. We just don't know the exact process of chemical reactions that led to it.
I spent an entire giant post on trying to prove that the process of abiogenesis would be extremely unlikely and that the miller-urey experiment only shows that, even if abiogenesis did occur, it would have taken a huge amount of time to even initiate under the conditions of early earth.

Concerning the age of the stars, maybe God just created them that way. After all, he did say "Let there by light" and there was light. The night sky wouldn't be nearly as lit so instantly if he had to wait for all the light from the stars to reach earth. I suppose I don't really have a evidence-laden rationalization, merely an explaination.
I'm half falling under my own fallacy here, but it's all I got.

Also, the idea that we don't need an explaination for the world existing is more of a philosophical problem moreso than a logical problem.
If I tried to argue this, I'm more than likely arguing against agnostics, and it's nigh impossible since they don't have any stance to defend beyond that one can have no stance on a God.
bobserved
bactual
Heh.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 09:06:00 PM by Moppy »

Well how do you know that he didn't? If some fantastic book written by 40+ authors over ~8,000 years comes along stating the origin of the world along with the rest linking up to historical events in complete consistency, than why shouldn't I believe it? They were a lot closer to the beginning of the world than I am, after all.


because this same book is full of a metric forget ton of contradictions

like god being defeated by iron chariots (judges 1:19) and being a lying forget (jeremiah 4:10) and not being capable of anger (isaiah 27:4) but then he changes his mind (nahum 1:2) yea

why would you trust a book with this many flaws and forgeted up stuff to guide your life

it would have taken a huge amount of time to even initiate under the conditions of early earth.
which it did