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Author Topic: POLITICS & DONALD Annoying Orange MEGATHREAD  (Read 2229620 times)

I mean, I agree with everything you're saying, but I think that the most ideal situation, and the one we should be working towards, is not actually having a Korean War II, and just waiting for the North Korean government to collapse naturally.
The problem is the quite literal ticking timebomb of the North Korean nuclear program. They will not voluntarily dismantle their nuclear program and will defend acquisition and manipulation of nuclear material/rocket technology as "science"

The problem therein is, once they develop a long range missile platform and a warhead for said platform, it's game over. They'll hit Hawaii, Cali, maybe they'll get as far as New York or DC. Seoul could already be reduced to rubble with the amount of conventional artillery North Korea has pointed at it 24/7, but there is tangible threat to the US mainland if NK's nuclear program goes any further.

Provoking them and saber rattling with them is stupid and pointless but for the sake of the American people and our allies, we cannot allow such a tyrannical regime to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

Given their callous attitude and dogmatic inclination to abusing their own people, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't nuke an American city just to kill as many civilians as possible.

The problem is the quite literal ticking timebomb of the North Korean nuclear program. They will not voluntarily dismantle their nuclear program and will defend acquisition and manipulation of nuclear material/rocket technology as "science"

The problem therein is, once they develop a long range missile platform and a warhead for said platform, it's game over. They'll hit Hawaii, Cali, maybe they'll get as far as New York or DC. Seoul could already be reduced to rubble with the amount of conventional artillery North Korea has pointed at it 24/7, but there is tangible threat to the US mainland if NK's nuclear program goes any further.

Provoking them and saber rattling with them is stupid and pointless but for the sake of the American people and our allies, we cannot allow such a tyrannical regime to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

Given their callous attitude and dogmatic inclination to abusing their own people, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't nuke an American city just to kill as many civilians as possible.
Can't all of what you just said be applied to the USSR circa 1960s? And if so, should we have tried to engage in total war with the USSR when mutually-assured destruction wasn't a thing yet?

Can't all of what you just said be applied to the USSR circa 1960s? And if so, should we have tried to engage in total war with the USSR when mutually-assured destruction wasn't a thing yet?

No, because the Space Race and Arms Race were bankrupting the USSR.

The American strategy at the time to deal with the USSR was to engage them in a contest of economic richard waving knowing that eventually their planned economy would collapse, with the added benefit of scientific research and development.

if North Korea's currency collapsed, it wouldn't really matter IIRC because their own currency would still be useful for internal use, and with the sheer quantity of sanctions against them at the moment, it's not like they would lose out on very much being unable to participate in the global market.

No, because the Space Race and Arms Race were bankrupting the USSR.
But that wasn't what actually caused the USSR to collapse, and there was still a window where we could have done a major, mainland invasion and prevented them from accumulating the absolutely absurd stockpile of nuclear weapons which Russia possesses today. We potentially have a situation like that today.

I don't think North Korea will accumulate a large nuclear stockpile, on the grounds that they do not have the human or natural resources to do so. Their program has progressed at a snail's pace, and recent tests still fail miserably. It's entirely conceivable that the military will overthrow the Juche regime before they ever create nuclear warheads capable of being deployed on ICBMs. Then, at the reins of a populous country with a new government, they might actually be willing to incorporate into the rest of the world economy in return for reasonable nuclear restrictions. Basically, a situation like what we have with Iran.

But even if they were to get a stockpile like Russia does, would it pay off to invade them early? Imagine the tens of millions of people who would have died as a result of an all-out war with Russia. And even still, Russia hasn't deployed any of their nukes. Would it have been worth it, in hindsight?

But that wasn't what actually caused the USSR to collapse, and there was still a window where we could have done a major, mainland invasion and prevented them from accumulating the absolutely absurd stockpile of nuclear weapons which Russia possesses today. We potentially have a situation like that today.

I don't think North Korea will accumulate a large nuclear stockpile, on the grounds that they do not have the human or natural resources to do so. Their program has progressed at a snail's pace, and recent tests still fail miserably. It's entirely conceivable that the military will overthrow the Juche regime before they ever create nuclear warheads capable of being deployed on ICBMs. Then, at the reins of a populous country with a new government, they might actually be willing to incorporate into the rest of the world economy in return for reasonable nuclear restrictions. Basically, a situation like what we have with Iran.

But even if they were to get a stockpile like Russia does, would it pay off to invade them early? Imagine the tens of millions of people who would have died as a result of an all-out war with Russia. And even still, Russia hasn't deployed any of their nukes. Would it have been worth it, in hindsight?
A big question that is raised if a revolution/ coup were to happen is what happens to the weapons? Nuclear proliferation is not really prevenatable if that's what goes down I think. Then instead of a tyrannical regime, who knows who would be in control of their stockpile.



But that wasn't what actually caused the USSR to collapse, and there was still a window where we could have done a major, mainland invasion and prevented them from accumulating the absolutely absurd stockpile of nuclear weapons which Russia possesses today. We potentially have a situation like that today.

I don't think North Korea will accumulate a large nuclear stockpile, on the grounds that they do not have the human or natural resources to do so. Their program has progressed at a snail's pace, and recent tests still fail miserably. It's entirely conceivable that the military will overthrow the Juche regime before they ever create nuclear warheads capable of being deployed on ICBMs. Then, at the reins of a populous country with a new government, they might actually be willing to incorporate into the rest of the world economy in return for reasonable nuclear restrictions. Basically, a situation like what we have with Iran.

But even if they were to get a stockpile like Russia does, would it pay off to invade them early? Imagine the tens of millions of people who would have died as a result of an all-out war with Russia. And even still, Russia hasn't deployed any of their nukes. Would it have been worth it, in hindsight?
Most North Korean infrastructure could be bombed into the ground by the US from carriers in the South China Sea in a matter of days. The question isn't is war with North Korea a good idea, as I believe it would be worth it due to the opportunity to put a halt to the NK nuclear program.

The question is more one of "how many US/civilian casualties are acceptable to accomplish this?" Additionally, "How do we protect South Korea/Japan from retaliation, particularly nuclear retaliation by NK once they realize it's over?"

Knowing Mattis, he's been planning this out for a while. It will be difficult to take out North Korean infrastructure and internal supply chains without killing some civilians. Surgical strikes and taking advantage of American air superiority is obviously the ideal option, but bombs are still imprecise and civilians will inevitably die.

In other words, civilians will die. It's nearly inevitable due to the imprecision of airstrikes that some will be caught in the crossfire. The question isn't one of "Is war with NK to stop their nuclear program from progressing worth it?" because IMO it totally is. The objective should be to neuter the regime as quickly as possible while avoiding the deaths of civilians and protecting SK/Japan from North Korean retaliation.

I'm envisioning a Six Days War scenario where NK is pushed back in a matter of days with a series of surgical strikes intended to disrupt the military's supply chain and eliminate potential missile silos, artillery positions, weapons depots, and airfields. The question is how to minimize collateral damage while doing so.

re-examining your question, you're essentially asking, "Is a preemptive strike justified if it could prevent further casualties which are perceived to be inevitable later down the line?" My answer is, yes, entirely justifiable. NK would nuke NYC in a heartbeat if they could.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 09:58:20 PM by Cappytaino »

https://news.vice.com/story/Annoying Orange-folder-positive-news-white-house

this'd be hilarious if it was true but we're talking about vice here so

this'd be hilarious if it was true but we're talking about vice here so
then why didn't spicer tell us what it is lol
edit: i don't believe vice for real but i just so badly want this to be true lol
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 10:07:52 PM by Drydess »

Most North Korean infrastructure could be bombed into the ground by the US from carriers in the South China Sea in a matter of days. The question isn't is war with North Korea a good idea, as I believe it would be worth it due to the opportunity to put a halt to the NK nuclear program.

In other words, civilians will die. It's nearly inevitable due to the imprecision of airstrikes that some will be caught in the crossfire. The question isn't one of "Is war with NK to stop their nuclear program from progressing worth it?" because IMO it totally is. The objective should be to neuter the regime as quickly as possible while avoiding the deaths of civilians and protecting SK/Japan from North Korean retaliation.
But American-led regime changes have, historically speaking, worked like stuff. The Iraq and Vietnam Wars were absolute failures. Ousting Saddam was nice until an evil 1000x worse showed up. Which wasn't a surprise, as even The Onion predicted it would happen.

This situation is only different because the North Korean government actually is trying to develop WMDs, but we have no guarantee that they will ever finish developing their nukes or use them on anyone. We know that displacing the North Korean government is going to end badly, so why trade a certain disaster for an uncertain positive?

I'm envisioning a Six Days War scenario where NK is pushed back in a matter of days with a series of surgical strikes intended to disrupt the military's supply chain and eliminate potential missile silos, artillery positions, weapons depots, and airfields. The question is how to minimize collateral damage while doing so.
This is a highly-ironic thing to say. The aggressors in the Six-Day War lost, against a much smaller and weaker nation, in what was supposed to be a targeted 'surgical strike'. In effect, we are the Arabs trying to squeeze Israel to death. Are you sure you want to compare it to the Six-Day War? lol

VICE is probably the worst journalism agency I can possibly think of. It's like cnn but it's socially acceptable because they can't shut the forget up about how much they hate Annoying Orange. I think I liked them better when they were making up garbage about black market nukes and Somalian warlords, now all they post is articles about how much they hate men on Snapchat

VICE isn't really journalism tbh. They're a click-bait site that does politics as a side-thing. It's like saying BuzzFeed counts as a news source because they occasionally report on world events.

I like VICE for their counter-culture documentaries, even though those aren't necessarily super well-researched either. But I would never call them 'news'.

But American-led regime changes have, historically speaking, worked like stuff. The Iraq and Vietnam Wars were absolute failures. Ousting Saddam was nice until an evil 1000x worse showed up. Which wasn't a surprise, as even The Onion predicted it would happen.

This situation is only different because the North Korean government actually is trying to develop WMDs, but we have no guarantee that they will ever finish developing their nukes or use them on anyone. We know that displacing the North Korean government is going to end badly, so why trade a certain disaster for an uncertain positive?
This is a highly-ironic thing to say. The aggressors in the Six-Day War lost, against a much smaller and weaker nation, in what was supposed to be a targeted 'surgical strike'. In effect, we are the Arabs trying to squeeze Israel to death. Are you sure you want to compare it to the Six-Day War? lol
I bring up the Six-Day war to draw comparisons to how decisive of a victory I believe it to be.

I don't believe in American-lead regime changes, but perhaps allowing open elections after the regime is deposed and tried for war crimes might be a better alternative. Literally anyone they could elect would be better than Dennis Rodman's Pal.

I believe NK will develop WMDs at some point, albeit slowly. The question becomes "Will the regime collapse first or will they get ICBM tech first?"

Doing nothing is taking a gamble that the answer to that question is option A.

Displacing the government would almost certainly cause people to flee across the borders north into China or south into SK and that inevitably will end in more death and a crCIA in itself, but I'd place nuclear missile launches much higher on the list of "things that would be pretty bad"

VICE isn't really journalism tbh. They're a click-bait site that does politics as a side-thing. It's like saying BuzzFeed counts as a news source because they occasionally report on world events.

I like VICE for their counter-culture documentaries, even though those aren't necessarily super well-researched either. But I would never call them 'news'.
VICE is probably the worst journalism agency I can possibly think of. It's like cnn but it's socially acceptable because they can't shut the forget up about how much they hate Annoying Orange. I think I liked them better when they were making up garbage about black market nukes and Somalian warlords, now all they post is articles about how much they hate men on Snapchat
Damn are you telling me it's more profitable to sensationalize and lie about news than it is to faithfully report?