Author Topic: Why does everyone hate Starbound?  (Read 9920 times)

honest to god i believe starbound is just as a decent game as terraria regardless of what the developers did to make the game

the main thing i liked in comparison between starbound and terraria is that you can explore some cool worlds with a random generator. and i've always liked this concept since 2011. in other similar subjects like blockland or garry's mod, they do not have what i like but both of them are my favorites for one good reason: they both have this modification system where you can make a world yourself, and even make a random generator making those worlds. doing this in garry's mod may be more difficult than doing one in blockland (Map generators, making maps that have the same traits, etc), but i think it's still possible to do it in garry's mod.

i loved and still love the idea of having a good platform of scripting/coding your own world and other cool stuff along with building it because in the end it makes you kinda learn some useful things of what you're currently doing here. going back to the topic starbound and terraria, you can still script and code your own add-ons too, which i like about every game that has this awesome add-on/mod system.

i probably am being unrelated but to come to a conclusion i liked both of them because the same idea for games like starbound and terraria is congruent to games with awesome add-on systems/mod systems/etc: you can be free without any bounds or limits.

I went back to terraria recently and personally thought it was really boring even though I loved playing it when it first came out.

LMAO, Overwatch. I meant Overgrowth, the early access ninja-bunny game from 2008 that is still in development.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/25000/

When I said "adding cool props" I literally meant that most of their dev work has been adding props and decals for a mission editor while the main game remains shallow.
I was semi-responding to Sir Dooble's post about the problems with the Starbound devs, and showing a comparison between 2 examples of good and bad slow development.
that's completely different, and I would agree with that because overgrowth barely has any development

LMAO, Overwatch. I meant Overgrowth, the early access ninja-bunny game from 2008 that is still in development.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/25000/

When I said "adding cool props" I literally meant that most of their dev work has been adding props and decals for a mission editor while the main game remains shallow.
Okay now that makes a whole lot more sense, I forgot Overgrowth even was a thing.

I just think you overthink the concept of a game.
Part of actually wanting to be "professional" (and not in the "get paid" sense) is that you start to think seriously about what you do, what it means and what it implies. I'm thinking very carefully about what games "are" because I want to make awesome, enjoyable games that people like. I don't want to make "games" that are only for my own enjoyment.

It doesn't need to teach or have an ultimate goal to be a game.
By the definition I operate on, a game is something that is designed to teach/practice skills and it does that in a fun way.

You gave some non-digital games to illustrate your point earlier, but there are others that I believe debunk it, such as 'Duck Duck Goose', 'Ouija Board', 'Chinese Whispers' or 'Tag', which have no end goal, no learning to win, no progress, or even an ending.
"Duck Duck Goose" and "Tag" are round-by-round. That means that a game only lasts as long as a single round.

To be honest, I never really thought of "Chinese Whispers" as a "game" since I've never actually sat down with people saying "Let's play Chinese Whispers." It's always just been a spur of the moment thing.

The Ouija Board is an interesting case, but I still don't consider it a "game". I feel it was lumped in under the game label because that's how they knew they could guarantee sales. I mean, using the Ouija Board doesn't really feel game-like to you, does it?

Their only ultimate goal is to be fun,
While it's not the only way, the main way of making "fun" is to trigger the dopamine response in a person's brain, which comes out of making a person feel as though they've accomplished something or gotten better at something. While simulators/toyboxes can make you feel that way, it's not a guaranteed feeling since the designer can't implement moments/challenges that allow for that kind of progression.

As part of my course I had to playtest on people who've never tried games before; we ran them through demos of Minecraft and Portal 2 (among other games). When they went into Minecraft, had no idea what to do and disliked it, yet when they played Portal 2 there was a lot of excitement and energy from the testers.

I don't think this is "accidental" or "coincidental". I think there's something very important about the need for goals and direction in games. The name Simulation/Sandbox/Toybox implies that it's a space that lets you bring your own motivations to the environment, but the name "Game" implies you're setting out to do something specific.

I think that perhaps you're hung up on a textbook definition or something your uni lecturers said.
This is a combination of various papers and lectures which I've put together and studied. Unfortunately, I've not gone for my Masters so I was not required to write a paper on my findings.

The thing is that games is something I care deeply about. It's just my thing. There's a lot of things that I don't care for and just want the simplified version of, such as politics and music (I don't understand or care for the differences in genres, as an example).

But your definition of what constitutes a game doesn't match the consensus of the general public. 'Game' is fine being a vague term and doesn't need to be split up. That's why we have genres to distinguish the variety of things under the 'game' umbrella.
The general public use terms as marketing departments use them. People aren't required, and should never be required, to study or understand the deep, low-level stuff about how things work. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to discuss why, in my opinion, something is/isn't what it's labelled as.

I personally don't think the use of the word is right, but it's not going to change anything or any one. At the end of the day, I feel I still have very reasonable logic that explains justly what I think and understand.

how loosely are you defining "skill" here? every game has to teach the player its mechanics, and starbound, minecraft, etc. all do this to some degree (minecraft sucks at it but it still does it) and rely on teaching the player how to explore their world, the basic means of progression, how to avoid threats, etc. the combat in starbound and terraria is at least as deep as any action RPG, and what else would you be mastering in those?
Think of it a bit like this.

You're in school, gym class. Now, the teacher could let you into the gym to just mess around with the equipment, but what guarantee is there that you'll actually spend your time doing something constructive? What happens if you get a bit lost and end up in the showers and you're unsure on how to journey back, since you haven't figured out the basic skills necessary to navigate as you decided to skip past that part? What if you focus entirely on building your abs, and then once they're looking perfect, you're not really sure what to do next and you don't feel like starting from the ground level?

I mean, those questions are probably stuffty and don't illustrate my point perfectly, but having an end goal is specifically to give you direction and keep you focused. You can occasionally lose focus and do other things in the game, but whenever you're ready to continue, the story will be there to guide you back on track. It's meant to be a major motivation for progression, nothing more.

Simulators can teach, but they don't have a guarantee. Normal games must teach if they want the player to reach the end.

and i would disagree that these games have made no design innovations. minecraft in particular implemented procedural generation into its design in a way that has had a massive influence on other games. this isn't just a pretty new neat feature that wasn't possible before, it would not be the same game without it, it's fundamental to its game design.
I just personally don't feel as though it's a positive innovation towards making better experiences between the designer and the player, which is at the very core of game design (which is what I do). Procedural games limit the amount of choice the designer has and how he can interact and interface with the players. It's much more a technical feat. rather than a design feat.



EDIT: As I have discussed with other people, Minecraft, Terraria and Starbound all do fall under the "game" category now that they all have actual end goals. I still have major reservations about how Minecraft "teaches" its players, and I still have aspects of Starbound that I personally dislike.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 12:39:41 AM by McJob »

Think of it a bit like this.

You're in school, gym class. Now, the teacher could let you into the gym to just mess around with the equipment, but what guarantee is there that you'll actually spend your time doing something constructive? What happens if you get a bit lost and end up in the showers and you're unsure on how to journey back, since you haven't figured out the basic skills necessary to navigate as you decided to skip past that part? What if you focus entirely on building your abs, and then once they're looking perfect, you're not really sure what to do next and you don't feel like starting from the ground level?

I mean, those questions are probably stuffty and don't illustrate my point perfectly, but having an end goal is specifically to give you direction and keep you focused. You can occasionally lose focus and do other things in the game, but whenever you're ready to continue, the story will be there to guide you back on track. It's meant to be a major motivation for progression, nothing more.

Simulators can teach, but they don't have a guarantee. Normal games must teach if they want the player to reach the end.

I just personally don't feel as though it's a positive innovation towards making better experiences between the designer and the player, which is at the very core of game design (which is what I do). Procedural games limit the amount of choice the designer has and how he can interact and interface with the players. It's much more a technical feat. rather than a design feat.
that's the fault of poor tutorial design. games with poor teaching are still games, they just have flaws in the way they convey their mechanics. a failure to introduce players to mechanics properly doesn't necessarily mean those mechanics don't lend themselves to mastery, and if a player doesn't pick up on these mechanics, they simply cannot enjoy the experience. in any game, you do naturally have to learn its mechanics in order to participate, or at least all the ones that are important to your strategy, and a game doesn't need to have a definite, explicit, understood end goal to be able to do this. dismissing something as a true game because it doesn't build in explicit linear progression, or similar problems of overdefinition, is detrimental to experimentation and the creation of more unique experiences. i disagree with the idea that unconventional or poor experiences can't be counted because it's a view that closes off unexplored territory and discourages innovation. media and art don't have rules, they just have precedents to build on. a lot of people have negative opinions about extra credits, but their video about this subject brings up a lot of good points.

procedural generation is a design innovation because it allows developers to create inherently deep exploration by giving a computer rules that they intelligently construct to make content that delivers a compelling experience. this is something that has massive game design potential if implemented correctly, and minecraft is important because it proved this is possible technically and viable as a design aspect. procedural generation can, at its best, encourage exploration and improve replayability in such a way that would be impossible for design schemes relying on deliberate construction. you still have to put in a lot of design work to make sure the ruleset you create actually makes for an interesting experience. it's a different kind of design, but design nonetheless.

I'm gonna have to agree to disagree at this point. It's going way off topic and I think it's pretty clear we're not going to see eye-to-eye about this.

I like starbounds art style more than terrarias.

What ever happened to planet control?
I thought the devs mentioned a much easier way to "terraform" and "change up" some parts of the planets close to the player's liking.

The original starbound early release was a boring loving mess of somehow worse than terraria melee combat, boring weapons, boring planets, boring creatures and boring progression.

The planets were pretty much all the same after your first 5, and once you have seen one castle, or one ship, or one "city", you have seen them all, theres nothing to go back to.

It seemed to lack everything and just be a boring plain old stuffty crafting game, I quit pretty early at that stage and what hours I did put into it weren't exactly fun.



Then they done some big update before releasing it, and I went back to it, and low and behold they managed to add some loving fetch quests, some cosmetic items and fix absolutely nothing that I felt made it a really boring game.

After that I haven't even bothered to touch the official release, meanwhile I've went through terraria 3 times with my friend and always enjoyed it. You can try and say its nothing like terraria but I was pretty much sold on the fact it would be "terraria in space", and you can't say they arent extremely similar.

I like starbounds art style more than terrarias.

I think I've said this before but if Terraria had the same style as Starbound, I'd be way more into it.

I think I've said this before but if Terraria had the same style as Starbound, I'd be way more into it.
Because of how Terraria plays, they need small sprites to display all the action on screen.
But I can agree some of Terraria will look "Messy" at times.

I'm gonna have to agree to disagree at this point. It's going way off topic and I think it's pretty clear we're not going to see eye-to-eye about this.
i guess really game designers all have lots of opinions on how games should be lol. doesn't matter in the end i suppose, if those ideas lead to good games then there's no sense in complaining

As someone who has over 200 hours in starbound, i can confirm that the game eats cans of richard

As someone who has over 200 hours in starbound, i can confirm that the game eats cans of richard
but why would you play a game for so long if it really sucked?