Author Topic: #Pizzagate  (Read 46238 times)

can we stop putting "-gate" after scandals now


doggate

ah stuff I don't want to get banned if this starts something


Rest assured that I'm not ridiculing you because I'm unwilling to debate something properly, it's because I find your position absurd and impossible to respect. I've argued with conspiracy theorists in the past. They always end up dragging me through a bunch of articles or videos that are either only tangentially relevant to the severe claims they make, or are produced by other conspiracy theorists citing sources that fall into the former category. There is always more of it, and my answer is often a variation on "the relevance of this to your central claim is pure conjecture, based on very loose connections." So why shouldn't I cut out the middleman, and look at why I'm getting all this bullstuff that elicits the same response so consistently?
so basically "I don't like arguing with theorists because they give me information and evidence to support their claim".

Most of the evidence for these conspiracies is gathered in the demented mindset that everything is connected, using the theory as a starting point and then gathering anything and everything that might fit into the equation, hoping someone smarter will sort it all out once all the pieces are found.
so the process of an investigation and the mindset of seeing connections is demented somehow? Because that's literally how all investigations ever carried out in all of human history have been structured.

it ends up being an absurdly long chain of weak affiliations - "X was once a partner of Y whose company employed W who once shared an elevator ride with Z whose Wikipedia page is only 6 links away from Adolf Riddler." I like that you used the phrase "heavily relates to" because that's exactly the point I'm making: the people investigating this are not creating any coherent idea. They're just making a huge pile of things that "heavily relate to" one, and then use those to sell the idea as solid.
The chain of "weak affiliations" you described there is not only pretty rhetorical but doesn't represent what is happening here whatsoever, there is no "my cousins friend's uncle's brother" stuff going on here, there are direct affiliations to these sketch people that the Clinton's/Podesta's have here.

But apparently when one thing heavily relates to another thing through direct relations it's just a non-coherent idea, keep telling yourself that kiddo because that's not how this stuff works.

The funny thing is, you could be totally right. The random-ass pizza shop could be the headquarters for a child enthusiast ring operated by government officials using mentally conditioned lab grown people to stage false flag attacks. I don't see any reason to write any theory off as definitely false until comprehensively disproven, but that doesn't mean I need to pay any attention to it when it's presented in such a stuffty way, and when Occam's Razor is usually pretty effective when dealing with the ramblings of insane people. The absolute disregard for attention to detail by the mob of people investigating it have sabotaged any chance of it being taken seriously by non-crazy people.
I absolutely respect the first part there, but the people doing this aren't "insane" by any means, their just taking it upon themselves to carry it out because the FBI or any branch of the government won't themselves.

And the being presented in a stuffty way part is loving great, it's not like detailed info-graphics and multiple compiles of information have been gathered already to present this to people who have a hard time going through it all themselves, not to mention said info-graphics and compiles of info being linked and posted in this thread multiple times already.

"disregard for attention to detail", yet this entire investigation has had complete regard for attention to detail, how can you not exhibit that when going through 30,000+ emails....

So unless your claim is that child enthusiasm exists in the world and anyone regardless of their career path can choose to partake in it (which admittedly I can't disprove), you'll need to do something more straightforward than handing me jumbles of links and expecting me to read through them all in hopes that I suffer the same mental glitch that you did.
once more "I don't want to listen to you because you're giving me information and making me read".

so basically "I don't like arguing with theorists because they give me information and evidence to support their claim".
More like "I don't like arguing with conspiracy theorists because they give me so much information and evidence that does not support their claim." Just because it's tangentially relevant and can be interpreted as significant when you apply the "everything is connected, nothing is as it seems, and nothing happens by accident" mindset, does not mean it's actually sufficient to support the absolutely absurd theories on show here.

so the process of an investigation and the mindset of seeing connections is demented somehow? Because that's literally how all investigations ever carried out in all of human history have been structured.
It is when you get carried away with it. A proper investigation rules out connections that are too flimsy to be of use, and focuses on the promising leads. A conspiracy theory investigation has no quality control for when dumbasses are linking two businesses together with a telephone style chain of affiliations and thematic similarities. Everyone just takes pathetic connections like those and runs with them, gathering more bullstuff into the web and never looking back.

The chain of "weak affiliations" you described there is not only pretty rhetorical but doesn't represent what is happening here whatsoever, there is no "my cousins friend's uncle's brother" stuff going on here, there are direct affiliations to these sketch people that the Clinton's/Podesta's have here.
It happens all the time. See the pizza place that was named the same as one which was a shareholder in a shareholder in a shareholder etc. into one that was involved in a money laundering scheme a few years ago. Sure there might be some solid links in there but it's not worth reading over until someone can carve it out from all the useless drivel. Know anyone who's actually done that? I looked the other night on the Voat community for such a thing and found someone hopping through a few companies, a few personal affiliations, and some other leaps of logic to bring the MK-Ultra bullstuff into the loop, which was almost a proof by reduction that they were completely demented.

But apparently when one thing heavily relates to another thing through direct relations it's just a non-coherent idea, keep telling yourself that kiddo because that's not how this stuff works.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. You may indeed find many valid and solid connections while obsessively researching leads at random, but it doesn't support the core theory at all if you have to get to it through a nonsensical conjecture somewhere down the line, and everyone seems to ignore those.

I absolutely respect the first part there, but the people doing this aren't "insane" by any means, their just taking it upon themselves to carry it out because the FBI or any branch of the government won't themselves.
Or they already have, through non-ridiculous means, and found nothing?  But hey, if an authority figure says something that indicates you may be wrong, it must mean that they're in on it, right?

And the being presented in a stuffty way part is loving great, it's not like detailed info-graphics and multiple compiles of information have been gathered already to present this to people who have a hard time going through it all themselves, not to mention said info-graphics and compiles of info being linked and posted in this thread multiple times already.
Almost every "info-graphic" I've seen so far has been a jumble of screenshots where I can only imagine someone has deliberately put in the effort to arrange them in a way that relays as few conclusions as possible.  I have seen a couple that graphically show how X is linked to Y, in turn linked to Z, and so on, but that just goes back to my earlier point that chains of links made by people who fixate on the strong ones and take the weak ones for granted are inadmissible. The compilations end up being jumbles of more and more links that again, do very little to tie back into this central theory. Maybe I've just been clicking on all the pointless links by random chance, but there really shouldn't be any of these tangentially related articles that form no conclusions in them in the first place. It's all quantity over quality taken to a ridiculous extreme. So yes, I do think it's presented in a stuffty way. Conspiracy theorists seem to have a knack for it, in my experience.

"disregard for attention to detail", yet this entire investigation has had complete regard for attention to detail, how can you not exhibit that when going through 30,000+ emails....
In the collection phase, granted. I was referring to the part where you take stock of everything collected. How often do you see someone say "hmm, this link seems really flimsy, can we get something more solid here before bothering to investigate this further" in a conspiracy theory investigation? I suppose it's perfectly okay to ignore the weak links if you take it for granted that there are an infinite number connections to be found between any two things anyway, and once you've found one chain you can draw whatever conclusions make both parties seem as nefarious as possible.

once more "I don't want to listen to you because you're giving me information and making me read".
If you hand me a five foot stack of papers, and I read a few pages and find that they're bullstuff, I'm not going to subject myself to the rest of them before reaching the conclusion that there was no quality control involved. Even if a few pages in that pile are solid, because of the wide range on display I'd just attribute it to random chance rather than the result of any of your efforts, and tell you to go back and filter it down to the ones that aren't a waste of my loving time.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 11:20:02 PM by -Jetz- »

just coming back to say that this was literally you 4 pages ago

changing viewpoints is a natural thing but dont suddenly act like you've always thought this was a sham or something

Well my point wasn't that It was right or wrong, but rather the way they were trying to debunk it wasn't right. That doesn't mean the opposition is right, I'm just pointing out that there arguments are stuff, and that if something seems off but the evidence shows otherwise, that doesn't mean you throw your head in the sand and go 'naw it seemed unbelievable, so therefore it is, and forget evidence'.

can we stop putting "-gate" after scandals now
nonnelgate

Well my point wasn't that It was right or wrong, but rather the way they were trying to debunk it wasn't right.

i dont see how you can show that point by saying stuff like this

I am not seeing a Whole lot of evidence, just happenstance and suspicious emails. Certainly the way the pizzeria's acted after PizzaGate was widespread and well known is suspicious, but that doesn't give me Evidence.
I'm not willing to say this is fake yet, but unless I have any evidence suggesting otherwise, EVIDENCE not Suspicious emails, I don't think I can justify this as anything more than a theory.
Don't get to swallowed up in this because there was an actually Conspiracy with the Clintons months prior and now that the election is over you want to chase some other conspiracy.
Unless you do not believe this conspiracy because you want to, but because the facts lead you to believe this, then you are more than likely following this to fulfill the addiction that is Conspiracy hunting.

in fact its downright irrelevant
you're just outright saying that unless you're provided hard evidence you think its (probably) fake and everyone's just conspiracy hunting
but now you're saying that

That doesn't mean the opposition is right, I'm just pointing out that there arguments are stuff, and that if something seems off but the evidence shows otherwise, that doesn't mean you throw your head in the sand and go 'naw it seemed unbelievable, so therefore it is, and forget evidence'.

so are the people who deny the theory wrong or right? are they ostriches burying their heads in the sand, or people who wont buy into conspiracy hunting or occupying their time with pizzagate after the election is over? and what evidence is there for them to throw their heads in the sand and deny if you claim that there is none?

talk about backpedalling

i dont see how you can show that point by saying stuff like this

in fact its downright irrelevant
you're just outright saying that unless you're provided hard evidence you think its (probably) fake and everyone's just conspiracy hunting
but now you're saying that

so are the people who deny the theory wrong or right? are they ostriches burying their heads in the sand, or people who wont buy into conspiracy hunting or occupying their time with pizzagate after the election is over? and what evidence is there for them to throw their heads in the sand and deny if you claim that there is none?

talk about backpedalling

The point wasn't the fact that they were ignoring evidence, but rather ignoring even the possibility of evidence in an obvious fear that it could change their point of view.

My point wasn't that they were burying their heads in the sand from evidence, but rather, the possibility of evidence.

Investigate for yourselves, don't give in one way or another because 'well it seems like it.'

The evidence can and will speak for itself, and if you are too afraid to look at the evidence, you are too afraid to know the truth, whatever that may be.

the main problem with this and so many other conspiracies is that in order to believe it it comes with so much baggage. you have to believe that the mainstream news is controlled by a shadowy government that doesnt want them showing a presidential scandal when that's all they do--then you'll have to believe that the police are stopped and manipulated away from investigating this massive case, even though they're about to be working under just about the biggest anti-clinton politician there is.

and the most ridiculous thing is that even though the media can do all that--they still can't stop a couple of dumbasses talking about it on the internet! it proves itself wrong.

as wikipedia puts it:
Quote
Pizzagate is a debunked[1] conspiracy theory [...] The theory has been discredited by a wide array of sources across the political spectrum, described as a "fictitious conspiracy theory" by the District of Columbia Police Department[2][3] and determined to be false by multiple organizations including Snopes.com,[4] The New York Times,[5] and Fox News.[6]

all compromised by the hillary campaign!

Fox News ran a story about Obama not wearing a tie during a state of the union address--and don't forget the latte salute. When they call you stupid, you know you've done something wrong.

Nothing directly with pizzagate but multiple people and massage palors in Massachusetts have been arrested/charged for human trafficking and multiple victims have been found. This stuff can happen anywhere

Nothing directly with pizzagate but multiple people and massage palors in Massachusetts have been arrested/charged for human trafficking and multiple victims have been found. This stuff can happen anywhere

It's certainly not uncommon. It's estimated there are more slaves today than at any point in human history. I personally live around 2 hours away from a city with massively high juvenile love trafficking rates - likely the largest in the country.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 11:13:17 AM by Stocking »