Catalonia's independence movement died before it started

[TristanLuigi]

you do understand that the "rights" a person has are entirely up to the whims of the dominant society, right? do you think the muslim world would agree gay marriage and abortion are "rights"? the overwhelming majority of the world would disagree with you on a huge swath of what you consider "rights" and the fact that you seem to think that people have the right to violate the democratically established laws of their own country is amazing to me

They're not democratic laws if the people no longer support them, and in fact actively want to overturn them. The fact that you don't comprehend that is amazing to me.

(Also, the rights of individuals are not the same as the rights of society at large. This is why taxes are acceptable in a democratic society - they may be supported by the majority, if not singular individuals. On the contrary, it's why the Holocaust is not acceptable - even if a majority of people approved of it, it still violates individual rights.)

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[beachbum111111]

They're not democratic laws if the people no longer support them, and in fact actively want to overturn them. The fact that you don't comprehend that is amazing to me.

Ah yes that damning 40% of the Catalan population

[Ceist]

The law is not always right.

We both agreed this is a subjective statement. Honestly this can't be used to justify any arguments you make.

[TristanLuigi]

We both agreed this is a subjective statement. Honestly this can't be used to justify any arguments you make.

On the same token, the law can't be used to justify any argument others make, unless your worldview is that "all laws are right and moral." Hence, the legality of secession is irrelevant. The argument isn't "is Catalan secession legal" (the answer is obviously no), it's "should Catalonia be allowed to secede" (which is independent of the legality).

If one thinks that, yes, all laws are right and moral, then I guess there's no real argument to be had. But I doubt most people would agree with that.

[Ceist]

On the same token, the law can't be used to justify any argument others make, unless your worldview is that "all laws are right and moral." Hence, the legality of secession is irrelevant. The argument isn't "is Catalan secession legal" (the answer is obviously no), it's "should Catalonia be allowed to secede" (which is independent of the legality).

If one thinks that, yes, all laws are right and moral, then I guess there's no real argument to be had. But I doubt most people would agree with that.

Law's can be used to justify an argument however, that's how courts make decisions. To make this point relevant to discussion, here's some info.
The High Court Justice of Catalonia issued orders to the police to prevent the elections.

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/09/20/catalunya/1505885372_273143.html
https://es.reuters.com/article/topNews/idESKCN1C42K5-OESTP
http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/catalan-court-mossos-close-polling-stations-referendum_195894_102.html

If you want to make the argument about whether they should, the obvious answer is also no, and you've attuned yourself to that idea as well in an earlier post of yours.

[beachbum111111]

Reminder that Catalonia will never be independent.

[Kearn]

They're not democratic laws if the people no longer support them, and in fact actively want to overturn them. The fact that you don't comprehend that is amazing to me.

then change the laws instead of immediately resorting to the default anarchist conclusion of "the laws don't apply to me if i don't like them" every single time

it's surreal to me that you seem to think it is perfectly fine to undermine the authority of a stable democracy on a whim because you have some trivial disagreement compared to the problems in the rest of the world

this isn't "overthrow the communist regime who tormented us for a century and starved and purged tens of millions of people" it's "we're an autonomous region with our own government and laws and we think we don't have to follow the constitution we voted for 40 years ago even though the rest of the country has to"

Reminder that Catalonia will never be independent.

[beachbum111111]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/27/europe/catalonia-independence-spain/index.html

HAHAHA

CATALONIA HAS EVEN LESS AUTONOMY NOW.

Tristan right now

[TristanLuigi]

Law's can be used to justify an argument however, that's how courts make decisions. To make this point relevant to discussion, here's some info.
The High Court Justice of Catalonia issued orders to the police to prevent the elections.

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/09/20/catalunya/1505885372_273143.html
https://es.reuters.com/article/topNews/idESKCN1C42K5-OESTP
http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/catalan-court-mossos-close-polling-stations-referendum_195894_102.html

Yes, but are the court's decisions relevant to what is right and wrong?

If you want to make the argument about whether they should, the obvious answer is also no, and you've attuned yourself to that idea as well in an earlier post of yours.

I argue that they should be allowed to, not necessarily that they should. There's certainly a distinction there. Their decision may not be correct, but it is their decision to make.

then change the laws instead of immediately resorting to the default anarchist conclusion of "the laws don't apply to me if i don't like them" every single time

it's surreal to me that you seem to think it is perfectly fine to undermine the authority of a stable democracy on a whim because you have some trivial disagreement compared to the problems in the rest of the world

this isn't "overthrow the communist regime who tormented us for a century and starved and purged tens of millions of people" it's "we're an autonomous region with our own government and laws and we think we don't have to follow the constitution we voted for 40 years ago even though the rest of the country has to"

This isn't anarchism. It's "Catalans should decide how they're governed." What Spain thinks of the ordeal is completely irrelevant, and while it would be nice to do it through legal paths, they're not going to convince the rest of Spain to change the constitution.

Also, not sure why you keep bringing up the 40 year thing as if it were some kind of great blow?

[beachbum111111]

it's always 'should' with you isn't it? Look at the reality Tristan. Catalonia will never, EVER, be independent and you know it. Sorry but your little poopstain on the tail end of spain will remain just that.

[Kearn]

This isn't anarchism.

you do realize that government is pointless if anyone can simply pitch a fit and claim the laws don't apply to them, right? are you a sovereign citizen?

Yes, but are the court's decisions relevant to what is right and wrong?

What Spain thinks of the ordeal is completely irrelevant

last time i checked, what the government you are subject to thinks is entirely relevant to your legal status

[TristanLuigi]

you do realize that government is pointless if anyone can simply pitch a fit and claim the laws don't apply to them, right? are you a sovereign citizen?

Yeah, because individuals are definitely the same thing as an entire society. Definitely.

last time i checked, what the government you are subject to thinks is entirely relevant to your legal status

The people are not subject to the government. The government is subject to the people.

[beachbum111111]

Tristan, if the overwhelming majority of Catalonias population supported white nationalism, was against immigration, against joining the EU, etc. Would you still support their right to be independent?

The answer is no. You can deny it but you would be against a Catalonian ethnostate being independent despite the majority of it's population wanting it.

[Kearn]

The people are not subject to the government. The government is subject to the people.

police are illegal

[TristanLuigi]

police are illegal

Police exist because the people have allowed the government to maintain the police for the benefit of society (at least in democratic societies).