Catalonia's independence movement died before it started

[Drydess]

ah so self-determination is only valid if you agree with them ok cool

the fact that the confederates were practicing human rights violations themselves i don't think it's fair to pull out the card that we were denying their rights

[Ad Bot]

[TristanLuigi]

the fact that the confederates were practicing human rights violations themselves i don't think it's fair to pull out the card that we were denying their rights

not just practicing those violations, but declaring independence for the express purpose of defending them

[Kearn]

the CSA wasn't about self-determination

no it definitely was about self-determination, they refused to have their economically destructive policies imposed on them over their own will

they loving beat up people trying to vote

in an election deemed unconstitutional, genius

do you think madrid beats people every time they voted for the catalan parliament?

are you being daft on purpose

oh thats cute

also:you never responded to this

doesnt matter whether they were or werent, they earned their independence the hard way while the catalonians seem to expect it to be handed to them by spain

[Nonnel]

ah so self-determination is only valid if you agree with them ok cool

Self-determination would be a valid reason to declare independence. The Southern states seceded (without an election (and even if they had an election, there was an assload of slaves who didn't count for a whole vote)) for the sole purpose of being able to continue violating human rights. they're not comparable to a nation that wants to secede because they're being denied human rights and who does not do it themselves.

I mean forget, "we the confederates are declaring independence just as america did from britain" sounds a lot like confederate propaganda lmao. it's completely tone-deaf and overlooks the fact that Americans fought for more rights and Confederates fought for less.

[HellHound]

yes, the right to self-determine whether or not certain groups of people should be treated as property..

pageloss

[TristanLuigi]

no it definitely was about self-determination, they refused to have their economically destructive policies imposed on them over their own will

yes, the right to self-determine whether or not certain groups of people should be treated as property..

in an election deemed unconstitutional, genius

so loving what

doesnt matter whether they were or werent, they earned their independence the hard way while the catalonians seem to expect it to be handed to them by spain

again, this is a "might makes right" argument

[Kearn]

(without an election (and even if they had an election, there was an assload of slaves who didn't count for a whole vote))

oh totally, that 43% turnout in an unsanctioned election with no voting controls wildly contrary to public polling sure is representative

so loving what

"well i guess they aren't following our laws, better do nothing about it at all"

k

again, this is a "might makes right" argument

you are incredibly ignorant if you do not understand that that is how the world works whether you like it or not

[Nonnel]

oh totally, that 43% turnout in an unsanctioned election with no voting controls wildly contrary to public polling sure is representative

so why not, I dunno, sanction an actual vote courtesy of Spain and overlooked by the UN rather than beat up people who try to vote

[Kearn]

because the constitution that catalonia overwhelmingly democratically agreed to less than 40 years ago forbids secession without parliament making way for it to happen, so such a vote is pointless and illegal (which is why it went the way it did)

[TristanLuigi]

because the constitution that catalonia overwhelmingly democratically agreed to less than 40 years ago forbids secession without parliament making way for it to happen, so such a vote is pointless and illegal (which is why it went the way it did)

the legality of secession is completely irrelevant

[Nonnel]

How does forbidding succession help human rights

[Kearn]

the legality of secession is completely irrelevant

it's entirely relevant when whatever you're trying to determine can easily be determined within a few points by simple opinion polling

How does forbidding succession help human rights

see: confederacy

[Nonnel]

Secession wasn't forbidden, the Confederacy fired on the Union and started a war you dink

[Juncoph]

itt kearn defends literal tyranny with the reasoning of "their laws say its ok"

[Kearn]

Secession wasn't forbidden

On March 4, 1861, Abraham Lincoln was sworn in as President. In his inaugural address, he argued that the Constitution was a more perfect union than the earlier Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, that it was a binding contract, and called any secession "legally void".

itt kearn defends literal tyranny with the reasoning of "their laws say its ok"

lawl