Is Communism the worst? Or national socialistsm is the worst?

Poll

Which one is the worst political party?

Communists
73 (49.3%)
national socialists
75 (50.7%)

Total Members Voted: 148

Author Topic: Is Communism the worst? Or national socialistsm is the worst?  (Read 16711 times)



me reading this thread
As a communist your opinion on this matter means nothing since you are essentially human garbage

genuinely nonironically curious do you got any material for this question

There are things like anarcho-communism which center themselves around smaller communes and less state power. I'm not sure whether I agree if authoritarianism is inherently bad, if we define it as "the state having a lot of power" and the converse of libertarianism and not "the state existing as some oppressive force against the people". Redistribution of wealth doesn't necessarily require state power anyway - in most flavors of communism, the redistribution of wealth occurs by some revolution of the masses, not through the state.

Communism is just about achieving a classless society that operates entirely for the good of the masses. Just because communist regimes have done really forgeted up stuff (and, I'd like to add capitalist countries have also done horrible things, they just survived the cold war) doesn't mean the core of the ideology is bad. Whereas I think the core of national socialistsm is horrible, because its based on psuedoscience and conspiracy in order to justify ethnic cleansing.

I don't really have a great answer for you though, I once commented "i'm basically a communist" on this forum but in reality I don't feel like I've done enough reading to justify calling myself that. I still don't have a lot of great answers or justification for the application of communist ideology, which is what makes these threads kind of annoying to me - even if I wanted to get rhetorically dogpiled by a bunch of angry libertarian teenagers on the internet, I probably wouldn't be able to make a very good case for anything, and that's frustrating. I'm going to do more actual activist work and research to figure out what I actually have faith in, and I hope to be a better representative of the left after that. If you want a really good answer, I'd suggest /r/DebateCommunism.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 08:07:40 PM by ultimamax »

i probably wouldn't exist if national socialistsm gained any more foothold than it did, and if communism gained a foothold we would probably still be figuring out what the forget we're doing


There are things like anarcho-communism which center themselves around smaller communes and less state power. I'm not sure whether I agree if authoritarianism is inherently bad, if we define it as "the state having a lot of power" and the converse of libertarianism and not "the state existing as some oppressive force against the people". Redistribution of wealth doesn't necessarily require state power anyway - in most flavors of communism, the redistribution of wealth occurs by some revolution of the masses, not through the state.

Communism is just about achieving a classless society that operates entirely for the good of the masses. Just because communist regimes have done really forgeted up stuff (and, I'd like to add capitalist countries have also done horrible things, they just survived the cold war) doesn't mean the core of the ideology is bad. Whereas I think the core of national socialistsm is horrible, because its based on psuedoscience and conspiracy in order to justify ethnic cleansing.

I don't really have a great answer for you though, I once commented "i'm basically a communist" on this forum but in reality I don't feel like I've done enough reading to justify calling myself that. I still don't have a lot of great answers or justification for the application of communist ideology, which is what makes these threads kind of annoying to me - even if I wanted to get rhetorically dogpiled by a bunch of angry libertarian teenagers on the internet, I probably wouldn't be able to make a very good case for anything, and that's frustrating. I'm going to do more actual activist work and research to figure out what I actually have faith in, and I hope to be a better representative of the left after that. If you want a really good answer, I'd suggest /r/DebateCommunism.
This exactly. national socialistsm is based around racism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide, and is inherently totalitarian. Assuming you think all of those things are evil, that makes national socialistsm automatically evil. Communism has none of those aspects; the core idea is simply the establishment of a classless society. Many communist regimes have done terrible things, but this doesn't make the ideology inherently evil. Many communists vehemently oppose totalitarianism, the Soviet Union, and other similar regimes, and opt for other variants such as anarcho-communism, syndicalism, or left-communism.

In my eyes, there's pretty much no question about this. Anyone who thinks communism is inherently worse than national socialistsm either doesn't understand that communism is not the same as Stalin's Soviet Union or Mao's China, or is a national socialist sympathizer anyway. I don't entirely blame people for this, though, since schools rarely make the distinction, and many historical communist regimes were of a Stalinist bent (largely due to Soviet influence). On the other hand, if the poll was about Stalinism, Maoism, or Leninism in general, you could have a decent debate.  

how about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy?
Not really relevant. Social democracy is a relatively moderate ideology that hasn't been accused of many atrocities. Many perfectly sane, successful, and democratic countries are social democracies (see: Nordic countries).
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 04:40:56 AM by TristanLuigi »


Yikes, the commies have come out to play

"blah blah which ideology is the worst"
ideology in itself the worst.
please stop with these stupid political threads

"blah blah which ideology is the worst"
ideology in itself the worst.
please stop with these stupid political threads
How dare people have political ideas based around a few core beliefs!? Ideology is evil, enlightened centrism wooo!

As nice as it would be to have all issues be decided by pure, scientific fact, many political questions simply don't have an objectively correct answer; and even if it is possible to perform rigorous brown townysis to maximize a set of parameters, you still need to decide what those parameters are. People's opinions are generally based around a set of core values. Ideologies are a natural consequence of this; people who primarily value tradition are likely to have similar opinions on most issues as those who also value tradition, and different opinions compared to those who primarily value equality, for example. Conservatives place heavy emphasis on tradition and respecting authority, liberals place value in liberty and democracy, and socialists prioritize equality above all. To oppose ideology doesn't really make much sense, since you're essentially opposing the existence of opinions, or at least consistent ones.

As a side note, non-ideological "moderates" aren't actually as much of a thing as people think. Many people classified as moderates by tests and researchers have just as extreme of views as others, but those views are inconsistent, creating an average that appears moderate.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 05:58:42 AM by TristanLuigi »


Anyone who thinks communism is inherently worse than national socialistsm either doesn't understand that communism is not the same as Stalin's Soviet Union or Mao's China, or is a national socialist sympathizer anyway.

sigh

sigh
Did you just elect to ignore the rest of my post?

I'm not even saying all communists are better than all national socialists. Depending on whether you consider the deaths in the European Theater of WWII to be Riddler's fault (I personally would, as WWII probably wouldn't have happened without fascist expansionism), Stalin may have a higher death count than Riddler. So sure, there may be a debate about their roles in WWII (though again, there is the important point that the commies were part of the Allies, and did not actually start the conflict).
national socialistsm is based around racism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide, and is inherently totalitarian. Assuming you think all of those things are evil, that makes national socialistsm automatically evil. Communism has none of those aspects as core ideas; the core idea is simply the establishment of a classless society.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 06:18:34 AM by TristanLuigi »

There are things like anarcho-communism which center themselves around smaller communes and less state power. I'm not sure whether I agree if authoritarianism is inherently bad, if we define it as "the state having a lot of power" and the converse of libertarianism and not "the state existing as some oppressive force against the people". Redistribution of wealth doesn't necessarily require state power anyway - in most flavors of communism, the redistribution of wealth occurs by some revolution of the masses, not through the state.

Communism is just about achieving a classless society that operates entirely for the good of the masses. Just because communist regimes have done really forgeted up stuff (and, I'd like to add capitalist countries have also done horrible things, they just survived the cold war)

I don't really have a great answer for you though, I once commented "i'm basically a communist" on this forum but in reality I don't feel like I've done enough reading to justify calling myself that. I still don't have a lot of great answers or justification for the application of communist ideology, which is what makes these threads kind of annoying to me - even if I wanted to get rhetorically dogpiled by a bunch of angry libertarian teenagers on the internet, I probably wouldn't be able to make a very good case for anything, and that's frustrating. I'm going to do more actual activist work and research to figure out what I actually have faith in, and I hope to be a better representative of the left after that. If you want a really good answer, I'd suggest /r/DebateCommunism.

haha equality of outcome by force guys its not like communism managed to kill just as many as colonialism despite not being big for nearly as long and only ruling a fraction of the world, f*ck the capitalists with their truly liberal social rights and their laws that aren't either totalitarian or outright murderous

the soviet union and china and cambodia and north korea and vietnam and cuba and yugoslavia Arent Real Communism!


before anyone says it, im not comparing national socialistsm to communism and yes national socialistsm is worse

This topic: "After having tasted these two stuff sandwiches, which one do you think is worse?"

are we diving into that "Real Communism" argument again