gimmicky-ass TDMs and HOLY stuff STOP IT

[Joker Card]

LOOK AT ALL THIS loving INSIGHT HOLY stuff

Sig'd

[Ad Bot]

[elm]

Bush, if you want people to use maps correctly, ie trenches, make it a real bad penalty when dieng so players value their life more.

Its like this, when i was young, i would play rainbow six 3 on the xbox, and once you died, you had to wait until the next round.

Now i play call of duty and just tap x like 5 times to respawn all fast.

I recently started playing cs:go on the xbox and it's similiar to rainbow six 3, i value my life a lot more and dont run out all stupidly like i would in mwf3.


That was just an example, the penalty for dieng could be something else, like slower walking speed, decrease in accuracy etc.

[elm]

Bush, if you want people to use maps correctly, ie trenches, make it where there is some sort of penalty when dieng so players value their life more.

Its like this, when i was young, i would play rainbow six 3 on the xbox, and once you died, you had to wait until the next round.

Now i play call of duty and just tap x like 5 times to respawn all fast.

I recently started playing cs:go on the xbox and it's similiar to rainbow six 3, i value my life a lot more and dont run out all stupidly like i would in mwf3.


That was just an example, the penalty for dieng could be something else, like slower walking speed, decrease in accuracy etc.

[Bushido]

why did you say that twice

[-Jetz-]

if it's not literally the tf2 classes, it's some sort of chinese carbon copy with uninspired new 'names', as if the old ones were too similar to the original and could legally be used as a weapon in a loving court of law. i'm looking at you, pecon.

Just gonna drop in and say the reason we did this is because it has proven effective in keeping people from complaining about every little difference between what we use and the respective TF2 class. Whenever we deny that we're just using TF2 classes, we're joking.

[Bushido]

the thing is though that tf2 classes are not necessarily the best choice for boss battles

i mean, yes, they have their place (in team fortress, for instance) but in an environment where you are literally free to do whatever you want to optimize the game and make it more fun instead you're just stripping content from somewhere else and copypasting it into your server instead of actually putting thought into them and what they would imply for the rest of the game

for instance: heavies and medics are the most stupidly applied classes ever in boss battles

the heavy- while he's 'designed' to be lastable against the boss (but not for any reason apparently, just to be different from the rest of the classes)- is too slow to avoid attacks and still killed by half of the instant-kill moves that the bosses have. but, there's no saving the guy as a playertype because, as a concept within a boss fight, a player that is too slow and clunky to out-maneuver (and is instead just a walking tank) a boss whose schtick is basically that he is a walking tank that can instantly kill you unless you approach him the right way* is just a liability. you can't make him tougher without making him a pain for the boss (not in a 'oh, man, this guy is dangerous and i should kill him first' kind of way but in a 'wow it's not fun at all to shoot this guy for 30 minutes while the rest of his team shoots at me' kind of way) and you can't make him dish out more damage or something because he'll still be instant killed by the boss. combining these two examples (there are many more fallacies that i don't want to address because i think i've made my point) will just make them overpowered entirely, and not only make it no fun for the boss to kill him but it'll cause everyone to play heavy because he's so overpowered, it'll cause the bosses nothing but stress because the other team is now stronger then them and the only real effect is that now the server is completely turned on it's head

the optimal solution to this is coming up with a new system entirely (classes are fine, but team fortress classes where team fortress classes don't belong aren't) that all have separate, useful strengths that all have a distinct place within the arena

for instance there could be four classes: one with a raycasting assault rifle and a small rocket launching pistol designed to do damage to the boss and play as a sort of 'not-extremely-special' character that, for gameplay balance and for the sake of being interesting, can do something neat like be the only one who can use 'field items' (which could be dropped from the boss, serving as power-ups), another that heals everyone it gets close to (healing specific targets more effectively with a special 'syringe') armed with a shotgun designed to help keep everyone alive and serve as a rally point, a third with a powerful, precise railgun and SMG that moves quickly but has less health then the 'assault' class who can do extreme critical damage by hitting weak points but isn't as useful without a team to draw fire and a final class that can dish out lots of damage with an enormous chaingun (like the heavy, but not the heavy) that runs quickly enough to dodge dangerous weapons and has a damage 'tolerance' that allows him a little bit of room for error before he starts getting hurt from the boss (for instance, the first few 'little' bullets that hit him are simply soaked up, and then anything that hits him afterward begins to do damage: bigger projectiles like rockets doing full damage on the first shot, but that's because they have a higher threat level and thus should be instantly dodged)

*pecon's boss battles do not have anything as intricate and interesting as a concept like this. i mean, the bosses could have something like weak points or patterned attacks or explicit maneuvers they have to pull off or telegraph their attacks and force players to react in time or anything at all but it's really just a glorified AiO.

a really loving unbalanced AiO that's downright agonizing for anyone who isn't the boss, and needs to be repaired

[fred da kiko]

if you're talking about 'for trench TDMs,' you'll probably just open another can of worms by having nobody use anything but your trench map, which will just swap the problem from 'boring-ass zero effort low quality maps' from 'less boring initially but eventually as boring somewhat-higher-quality-maps that someone else made'

unless you're not talking about TDMs, and just want to make a map? there's nothing wrong with that

The solution would be to create more maps, but that requires massive effort, dedication, and time resources. I would probably do it if i wasn't frustrated at how often blockland crashes for no loving reason while i'm on single player.

[fred da kiko]

The solution would be to create more maps, but that requires massive effort, dedication, and time resources. I would probably do it if i wasn't frustrated at how often blockland crashes for no loving reason while i'm on single player.

Also, i prefer a higher quality map with fair spawn points and an unbiased system that is fun as opposed to stuffty "hur hur blu team spawns in a hole while red team spawns at the top of a loving moutain" maps. IMO an enjoyable experience is what games are about, i'd rather have an enjoyable experience ripped straight from someone else when the other option is a stuffpit that some 12 year old made in 30 minutes out of 64x cubes and modulated terrain blocks.

[Trinity Armory]

If it wasn't for the fact that basically any time I host anymore it's connected to the Bug Mods in some way or another (and thus could be considered 'gimmicky' in some way, not to mention I use combat classes, yet another thing people complain about :S). I do agree that people SHOULD look into trying more standardized DMs though, even if I'm partly tied up with my own duties to do so :S

As for all the 'unoriginal maps or concepts' part, you got to remember that not many people are very good builders, add in that it's VERY easy to create a random trenchdig and set up a board full of weapon options (or copying classes from another game/popular server) is a lot easier than the balance, tweaking, and figiting it takes to make a balanced option in comparison to the opponent. Especially if you got teams with uneven loadouts. An example not related to me would be, say, someone making a DM where Modern T+T weapons were pitted against the Classic T+T weapons. Unless you were doing a weapon swap or shop option at spawn, you'd probably at least would have SOME forethought in the sake of balance, especially if things like fuel jets, shields and so on were added to the mix.

Thus (sadly) it relates to a carpton of uninspired copies and 'popular' gamemodes. Vexing, yes. Controllable? Not really :S

[Providence]

If it wasn't for the fact that basically any time I host anymore it's connected to the Bug Mods in some way or another (and thus could be considered 'gimmicky' in some way, not to mention I use combat classes, yet another thing people complain about :S). I do agree that people SHOULD look into trying more standardized DMs though, even if I'm partly tied up with my own duties to do so :S

As for all the 'unoriginal maps or concepts' part, you got to remember that not many people are very good builders, add in that it's VERY easy to create a random trenchdig and set up a board full of weapon options (or copying classes from another game/popular server) is a lot easier than the balance, tweaking, and figiting it takes to make a balanced option in comparison to the opponent. Especially if you got teams with uneven loadouts. An example not related to me would be, say, someone making a DM where Modern T+T weapons were pitted against the Classic T+T weapons. Unless you were doing a weapon swap or shop option at spawn, you'd probably at least would have SOME forethought in the sake of balance, especially if things like fuel jets, shields and so on were added to the mix.

Thus (sadly) it relates to a carpton of uninspired copies and 'popular' gamemodes. Vexing, yes. Controllable? Not really :S

It isn't that hard to come up with a decent map design, and the build doesn't have to be necessarily good. It only has to be playable and the design should give players constant action. You don't even have to be a good builder to come up with a decent map, so where did you get that you have to be a good builder to make a good map?

It takes time and effort to make one, but most people don't put forward this effort to make original maps.

[Buu]

cheezus christ we need an actual tf2 gamemode mod


I tried to make it but i failed at the player types

[Chrono]

cheezus christ we need an actual tf2 gamemode mod


I tried to make it but i failed at the player types

No, we don't. We need something original.
I mean, come on, TF2 is free. If you really want something completely TF2 then it's right there.

[Mouse droidz 21]

trench tdms are the 2nd worst ive played. all you do is dig and shoot and dig and thats it. its not fun at all

[Gear]

In response to this thread I made a basic Tank TDM on Gravity Cat's server. It's a desert arena with several mountain ridges , rocks and villages for cover. You don't get any weapons for direct combat , you only get a pipe wrench and a medipack. You spawn in a small box to read some basic rules and so the spawn of the bases doesn't get flooded by occasional AFK players.
The bases have a small spawn building with a helicopter spawn on top of it (Unarmed helicopter for picking up lone pilots that got their vehicle destroyed but survived) , some towers with tank turrets on it , an artillery gun and about 8 T90 spawns. All of that gets separated from eachother by thick 4x4 cubes so that enemy fire can't just wipe out people before they get into vehicles.

I still have to test it with a bigger amount of players and require feedback / improvement ideas for it.
Next time Gravity Cat's server is online I will try to set it up.

[Harm94]

We some sort of team death match mod that makes people stick together and cooperate to get an objective complete. Saddly people will rambo no matter what.