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Author Topic: POLITICS & DONALD Annoying Orange MEGATHREAD  (Read 2874002 times)

I posted the diagram of a monopolist's demand curve, right?

The price of drugs set by a monopolist is whatever consumers are willing to pay at the profit-maximizing quantity. That's the intersection between the marginal cost of producing another pill/injection/etc and the marginal revenue they receive for each additional pill/injection/whatever they make. The long-run average total cost (stuff like that '2 billion dollars' figure you mentioned) doesn't actually affect the price they set. Meaning even if it cost $0 to get your drug approved, as long as the marginal cost/revenue and the consumer demand curve stays the same, the monopolist charges the exact same price because anything different loses them money.

In other words, this reasoning is false because microeconomics.

okay, I'll admit that's the field I know the least about
encouraging competitiveness elsewhere will still bring down healthcare costs, though; you should be able to buy a plan tailored to you rather than one that has a bunch of extra junk you don't need

This would lower costs among the middle and upper-class, but if you're poor or have pre-existing conditions, you're still forgeted.

so how would you fix it? by implementing subsidies? healthcare providers would only raise their prices then, that's what they did when Obamacare was implemented and it's what happens everywhere else subsidies are implemented

Somehow, I doubt you have the type that actually disqualifies you from health insurance because I believe your self-preservation instincts would take precedence over your desire to push the libertarian line on healthcare.

do asthma and a peanut allergy from birth not count as pre-existing conditions all of a sudden?

tn why would you not want your insurance to cover you

tn why would you not want your insurance to cover you

why tf would you think I don't want my insurance to cover me

encouraging competitiveness elsewhere will still bring down healthcare costs, though; you should be able to buy a plan tailored to you rather than one that has a bunch of extra junk you don't need
Encouraging competition does drive down costs, but that's not the real issue here. Free market health insurance isn't a system that's designed to make it so that chronically ill people can afford their medication. It's a safeguard for people with jobs/money and good health to avoid risking bankruptcy over illness. There is no market-based solution that will ensure people with pre-existing conditions can survive their diseases without financial ruin. As a society, we've got to collectively agree to sacrifice a certain amount of market efficiency and money to ensure that people do not have to suffer needlessly for things that aren't their fault.

so how would you fix it? by implementing subsidies? healthcare providers would only raise their prices then, that's what they did when Obamacare was implemented and it's what happens everywhere else subsidies are implemented
Healthcare providers do exploit subsidies but there isn't any way to avoid that when crucial medications are held by a small number of firms. This is the sacrifice of efficiency that comes with making healthcare less awful for people. A single-payer system might be better because, from the perspective of the drug companies, the consumer demand is still pretty much the same. It's just that it's being paid for by a government agency (which in turn is being paid into by US tax payers). That's outside of my understanding of economics though, and there might be similar issues. I do think that it would be worth it though.

Something to consider is the fact that having a healthy and longer-living populace is better for the economy. Less people sick means more people working. When everyone went to watch the OJ Simpson trial, the US economy lost like half a billion dollars in economic activity. Imagine what having publicly-funded healthcare would do in terms of previously-unexploited productivity.

People would also probably retire later on with the confidence that they will live longer. With the average US male living 76 years, you're really shafting yourself by retiring at 65 only to maybe live 10 more years.

do asthma and a peanut allergy from birth not count as pre-existing conditions all of a sudden?
They're not going to disqualify you from coverage because insurers will recognize the fact that, a) it's very unlikely that you're going to be frequently needing expensive medical care for your peanut allergy, and b) asthma medications aren't nearly as expensive as stuff like chemotherapy and insulin.

Your premiums are probably going to be higher than mine, but you can still receive health insurance for a price you'll be able to afford. Many people can't say that. Many people won't get offered a plan by literally any sensible insurance firm.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 06:28:18 PM by SeventhSandwich »

I have a pre-existing condition, by the definition of Obamacare. I couldn't care less if I lose coverage because I'm not a selfish starfish who wants everyone else to pay for my healthcare. I'll loving pay for it myself, thank you.
get yourself some healthcare then. i don't mind paying 0.0002% of a cent every month to lower your healthcare price, i'm sure everyone else doesn't care either. after all, you pay for some of my asthma medication through taxes. it's just giving back, yknow

I have a pre-existing condition, by the definition of Obamacare. I couldn't care less if I lose coverage because I'm not a selfish starfish who wants everyone else to pay for my healthcare. I'll loving pay for it myself, thank you.
I can imagine it's a sad life to think that wanting to be alive (as opposed to dead) is selfish

I can imagine it's a sad life to think that wanting to be alive (as opposed to dead) is selfish

it's sadder that people expect others to pay for their healthcare without contributing whatsoever

it's sadder that people expect others to pay for their healthcare without contributing whatsoever
i guess fundamentally, what we're talking about is whether other people's right to life is more important than one's own right to property. whichever side you're on, you're probably going to think the others are selfish because they want to take something from you for their gain. i personally think someone wanting public money to avoid actual death is fairly reasonable, but if you fundamentally believe taxation is theft then i imagine public money as a concept is offensive

i guess fundamentally, what we're talking about is whether other people's right to life is more important than one's own right to property. whichever side you're on, you're probably going to think the others are selfish because they want to take something from you for their gain. i personally think someone wanting public money to avoid actual death is fairly reasonable, but if you fundamentally believe taxation is theft then i imagine public money as a concept is offensive
You're not directly taking away someone's right to life by not forcing other people to pay for their healthcare.

The problem with taxpayer-funded healthcare is the implication of compelled service. If you define healthcare as a fundamental right, then that implies that doctors are the conduit by which that right is expressed, i.e. doctors will be forced to treat patients. In other words, a doctor will be compelled (through implied use of force) to serve people.

This isn't even getting into the economics of why taxpayer funded healthcare sucks in general, just the idea of taxpayer-funded healthcare runs counter to the inalienable freedoms intended for the people of this nation. Forced servitude of doctors is certainly a moral issue. In what other private profession does the government currently say "you have to serve these people whether you want to or not or else we will punish you?" Legally, Non-ER doctors have the discretion to refuse service in non-life threatening cases for any reason not related to race, religion, or political beliefs.

it's sadder that people expect others to pay for their healthcare without contributing whatsoever
Do taxes not count?

Do taxes not count?
Should people that don't make enough money to pay taxes/have no documented income have access to this hypothetical taxpayer funded healthcare?

Should people that don't make enough money to pay taxes/have no documented income have access to this hypothetical taxpayer funded healthcare?
If they're disabled, yes. If they have no documented income, then they ought to demonstrate they're searching for a job.

This isn't even getting into the economics of why taxpayer funded healthcare sucks in general, just the idea of taxpayer-funded healthcare runs counter to the inalienable freedoms intended for the people of this nation. Forced servitude of doctors is certainly a moral issue.
This is literally not how it works. Doctors receive paychecks from the hospitals. Hospitals receive money from patients. Except, in a single-payer system, the patient gives the hospital a card and a tax-payer funded institution foots the bill. The doctor is working for no more/less money than he was before. Where does forced servitude come into play here.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 08:18:18 PM by SeventhSandwich »

If they're disabled, yes. If they have no documented income, then they ought to demonstrate they're searching for a job.
This is literally not how it works. Doctors receive paychecks from the hospitals. Hospitals receive money from patients. Except, in a single-payer system, the patient gives the hospital a card and a tax-payer funded institution foots the bill. The doctor is working for no more/less money than he was before. Where does forced servitude come into play here.
The forced servitude comes with the definition of healthcare as a right belonging to people that cannot be denied.

the problem is the inconsistency of this logic. For example, people have the right to life, but it is their own responsibility to sustain that. If I'm a farmer and I grow corn, and you're starving and I don't give it to you, I'm not violating your rights.

"hey man, i'm sorry but it's not a human right to live a healthy life free of preventable illness."
See the above point. Your health is your own responsibility. You are entitled to life but not healthcare i.e. Murder is a crime, but as a doctor I wouldn't be compelled to serve you unless you are dying in an emergency situation and wouldn't be accountable if you die in a non emergency situation.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 08:27:52 PM by Cappytaino »

The forced servitude comes with the definition of healthcare as a right belonging to people that cannot be denied.
"hey man, i'm sorry but it's not a human right to live a healthy life free of preventable illness."

The forced servitude comes with the definition of healthcare as a right belonging to people that cannot be denied.
Dude it is already illegal to refuse healthcare to people in desperate need. If someone shows up to an ER with gunshot wounds and the doctors refuse to treat them, the doctors get sent to prison and the hospital is shut down.

https://www.acep.org/news-media-top-banner/emtala/

But what you're saying here isn't even an American value. Having to treat people (in exchange for money, regardless) to prevent their death is basic human rights. If there's some sort of dispute over whether that's 'American', then the term is meaningless and should be abandoned.

Murder is a crime, but as a doctor I wouldn't be compelled to serve you unless you are dying in an emergency situation.
So refusing to save someone with gunshot wounds is unethical, but letting someone slowly die from cancer due to lack of insurance is morally acceptable?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 08:26:59 PM by SeventhSandwich »