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Author Topic: Duck's New PC Thread  (Read 14729 times)

Western Digital?

1 thunder power bump while running = no longer usable

And where is this tangible evidence for evolution?  Perhaps you could find some evidence that isn't falsified, while you are at it.  There is no "form of evidence".  We are all looking at the same facts, the difference is in the interpretation.  As for the subconscious desire, that's obviously bull.  The actual evidence to support creation lies in the amazing amount of evidence that supports other biblical accounts, such as the great flood, the table of nations, etc.  I do not claim to have spoken with God, that is only claimed by actual loonies who are not real Christians, you are obviously setting up a straw man.  In my mind, if you have actually studied the subject with an open mind, you wouldn't be acting like Inverted.

Where is the tangible evidence for biblical creation?  Biblical events supporting other biblical events is hardly reliable.  I can pull any fiction book off the shelf and connect the events at the beginning with the conclusion.

As for being open minded, I was raised Christian.  Inv3rted was raised Zoroastrian.  We both have experience with religion and still believe scientific fact over stories and mythical beings.  You were raised to believe creation, and still do.  You followed your childhood experience, studied it, and continued to believe it.  Try reading up on atheism and some of it's followers.  Great minds through history all sharing the same lack of belief is obviously right up there next to Elvis's death and the JFK assassination.

There is absolutely no evidence for the biblical creation stories. You exclude everything found by modern science because you assume it is biased against your own handicapped views. The reality is that you are breaking the scientific method by assuming these accounts before even finding a shred of peer reviewed evidence. Macro and microevolution are arbitrarily separated, as the definition of species is also arbitrary. The fact is that life isn't a bunch of living organisms broken up into groups, but rather a gradient of gradual change.

Macroevolution has been proven a fact. Just because the greatest minds on the planet say this doesn't make it a conspiracy.

The evidence for the biblical creation account lies in its connection to other biblical accounts which have plenty of evidence going for them, such as the flood.  "Modern" science IS biased against creation, as it was created by atheists who wanted to drown out any evidence supporting creation.  But even then, I don't exclude anything found by modern science, as modern science hasn't found anything.  At least not anything supporting evolution.

How am I breaking the scientific method by not going with the popular vote?  There are tons of peer-reviewed books, essays, and even some periodicals in support of creation, and I have read many of them.  All of your assumed claims are invalid.

Microevolution and macroevolution MUST be separated, as ONLY ONE IS OBSERVED!  There is nothing "arbitrary" about it!  One is observed, the other is hypothesized, huge distinction.  That is why macroevolution will NEVER be a fact, because it hasn't, it can't, and it won't be scientifically observed, let alone tested.

Where is the tangible evidence for biblical creation?  Biblical events supporting other biblical events is hardly reliable.  I can pull any fiction book off the shelf and connect the events at the beginning with the conclusion.

As for being open minded, I was raised Christian.  Inv3rted was raised Zoroastrian.  We both have experience with religion and still believe scientific fact over stories and mythical beings.  You were raised to believe creation, and still do.  You followed your childhood experience, studied it, and continued to believe it.  Try reading up on atheism and some of it's followers.  Great minds through history all sharing the same lack of belief is obviously right up there next to Elvis's death and the JFK assassination.

Frankly, neither view on the origin of the world can ever have tangible evidence, because neither of them can be observed.  But, it's simply bad logic to not assume that a book, which claims that every part of itself is true, is not completely true when every other part of it has tangible evidence for itself except the beginning.

As to your upbringing, being told that "Jesus loves you" by your Mom when you go to bed at night doesn't count as having an open mind.  Unless you have read and occasionally read Christian authors and philosophers, such as Spurgeon or Dabney, I highly doubt you really had an open mind when you tackled this issue for yourself.

As to my upbringing, I've been reading Nietzsche since I was 13, thank you.  I always read the opinions of both sides of an issue, and this is no different.  My library most certainly has included quite a few atheistic authors, philosophers, and scientists for quite a while.

The evidence for the biblical creation account lies in its connection to other biblical accounts which have plenty of evidence going for them, such as the flood.  "Modern" science IS biased against creation, as it was created by atheists who wanted to drown out any evidence supporting creation.  But even then, I don't exclude anything found by modern science, as modern science hasn't found anything.  At least not anything supporting evolution.

Refute each of the following using the scientific method.

I'm using a source cited by wikipedia, which can be freely edited by anyone. Don't claim bias, Mr. Modern Science is a Conspiracy By Atheists.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html#part5

Refute it. Now. Then give me a list of evidence for Biblical creation that I will show to be physically impossible. It's as simple as that. There is no debate when it comes to the sheer amounts of evidence pointing in one direction.

Refute each of the following using the scientific method.

Shifting the burden of proof are we?

"I think these are real evidences, I don't have to prove it right, you have to prove it wrong."

I'm using a source cited by wikipedia, which can be freely edited by anyone...

...including atheists who have obvious bias.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html#part5

Refute it. Now. Then give me a list of evidence for Biblical creation that I will show to be physically impossible. It's as simple as that. There is no debate when it comes to the sheer amounts of evidence pointing in one direction.

First of all, with such a list, it's going to take a little more than "now" to go through each of them in detail.  But I can tell just from doing a quick scan that most of them are mere instances of microevolution, that are falsely labeled as "speciation".

You see, most creationists, including myself, believe in a microevolution, including a limited form of what you would call "speciation".  It is entirely possible (and probable) in the creationist worldview that the dog is related to the coyote and the wolf, all three of them still being classified as different "species" today.  However, we believe that they all originated with a common dog-creature, and not another "kind" of organism entirely.

None of those examples are any different from the above.  They are all producing an organism that resembles the parent organisms, with very minor changes.  This is common, observed microevolution.  This is not actual "speciation", or macroevolution..  


Do you realize that 8 of their so-called "evidences" involved fruit flies?  And what did those experiments produce?

More fruit flies!  There were fruit flies with minor mutations, but no matter how many generations were produced, the only resulting organism was a fruit fly.  A fruit fly population mutating over time into a non-fruit-fly population has never been observed, ever.

------

As for evidences for Biblical creation, I will point you a very well-written book entitled "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown, Ph.D.  It points out and discusses evidence that supports creation, of which it has quite a bit.  You can find it online, but it's not formatted well.  You'll have to click "next page" to get to each number on the list.

The life sciences' evidences are listed here:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/LifeSciences4.html

Astronomical and physical sciences' list can be found here:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/AstroPhysicalSciences3.html

He then begins to discuss evidences for a global flood:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/EarthSciences3.html

His references and notes are here:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes2.html

I want you to refute all of the above.  Now.  I'll wager it'll be physically impossible for you to do that.  It's as simple as that.  There is no debate when it comes to the sheer amounts of evidence pointing in one direction.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 05:51:51 PM by Duckmeister »

You shifted the burden of proof in the first place by offering a handicapped creationist perspective that is radically against the evidence. You said that I had to prove evolution.

Do you realize that 8 of their so-called "evidences" involved fruit flies?  And what did those experiments produce?

More fruit flies!  There were fruit flies with minor mutations, but no matter how many generations were produced, the only resulting organism was a fruit fly.  A fruit fly population mutating over time into a non-fruit-fly population has never been observed, ever.

Read up on the definition of species, before you make handicapped assumptions. We are still apes. If you look at our immediate ancestors, you see very little change. But when you look at ourselves and then go further and further back in time, you see extreme changes. That is evolution. The line that is drawn by speciation is arbitrary and not scientific. You obviously don't know how evolution works.

------

The life sciences' evidences are listed here:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/LifeSciences4.html

Evolution has nothing to do with "something coming from nothing." That is the field of abiogenesis, or how life first started. Mixing up scientific fields now, are we? All this goes to show is a fundamental ignorance.

Astronomical and physical sciences' list can be found here:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/AstroPhysicalSciences3.html

Everything on this page is not true. It says moons should be on an equatorial orbit, but this is not the case. Moons can be asteroids that are trapped by gravity or chunks of a planet sent into orbit by an impact. One handicapped mechanism for creation down.

It then goes on to speak of the oh so large variance in orbital planes of seven degrees. This is a very small amount. No disc is perfectly flat, so how do you expect an orbit to be perfectly aligned with its neighbors? This hypothesis would hold more dirt if the planets had much larger differences in orbital planes. Another one down.

"Angular Momentum.  The Sun should have about 700 times more angular momentum than all the planets combined. Instead, the planets have 50 times more angular momentum than the Sun"

This is not true, and I don't know what sort of physics the other took in high school. I think that it is fairly obvious to anyone with half of a brain that the people on the exterior of a racetrack have to move faster to keep in line with those on the interior. Therefore the sun can move much slower than the outer planets. That's three.


He then begins to discuss evidences for a global flood:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/EarthSciences3.html


Oh, this will be fun.

Nevermind. I read everything on that page, and I was expecting some handicapation that the flood carved out the grand canyon. Instead I just got some vague references to Christian and Jewish mythology by Christians and Jews. How quaint.


His references and notes are here:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes2.html

All I see here is more and more speak of "spontaneous generation". This HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EVOLUTION. Get it straight. Evolution describes the gradual diversity of life. You have created a straw man argument, which is what I would expect from someone of your scientific understanding.


Your turn, friend.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 06:19:00 PM by Inv3rted »

Read up on the definition of species, before you make handicapped assumptions. We are still apes. If you look at our immediate ancestors, you see very little change. But when you look at ourselves and then go further and further back in time, you see extreme changes. That is evolution. The line that is drawn by speciation is arbitrary and not scientific. You obviously don't know how evolution works.

Ahem.  Your definition of species is only the definition of species as defined by an evolutionist, so obviously it's going to require evolution.  As a result, this is the stupidest, most illogical defense of evolution I've ever heard.  There are other definitions of species, ones that actually define it instead of force it to coincide with an otherwise hung-out-to-dry perspective.

Evolution has nothing to do with "something coming from nothing." That is the field of abiogenesis, or how life first started. Mixing up scientific fields now, are we? All this goes to show is a fundamental ignorance.

Oh, but it has everything to do with abiogenesis.  See, evolution REQUIRES abiogenesis, in fact, spontaneous generation is its FOUNDATION!  You obviously know nothing about the perspective you are defending, as what created life in the first place if life did not come from God?  And if life didn't come from God, it certainly couldn't have become what we see today in the way God says it does, therefore, the only result is evolution preceded by spontaneous generation.

And because of the above, your entire view is knocked down by that one chapter.  Besides, if you actually read all of it, you would find that only some of its evidences are against spontaneous generation, and the rest are all against the concept of evolution itself.  So, please, go read it again, fully this time.

Quote
Everything on this page is not true. It says moons should be on an equatorial orbit, but this is not the case. Moons can be asteroids that are trapped by gravity or chunks of a planet sent into orbit by an impact. One handicapped mechanism for creation down.

Obviously he was using the word "moon" as defined thusly:

"A natural satellite revolving around a planet, excluding various objects that, without the gravitational pull of the aforementioned planet, would be considered as "asteroids" or "space debris"."  

Equivocation is a bad fallacy to dance with, my friend.

Quote
It then goes on to speak of the oh so large variance in orbital planes of seven degrees. This is a very small amount. No disc is perfectly flat, so how do you expect an orbit to be perfectly aligned with its neighbors? This hypothesis would hold more dirt if the planets had much larger differences in orbital planes. Another one down.

Seven degrees can only be considered "small" in a highly relative fashion.  It's enough to support his hypothesis, and whether it's up to your extremely high "grrrr creation grrrr" standards doesn't matter.  It obviously fits his hypothesis scientifically.

Quote
"Angular Momentum.  The Sun should have about 700 times more angular momentum than all the planets combined. Instead, the planets have 50 times more angular momentum than the Sun"

This is not true, and I don't know what sort of physics the other took in high school. I think that it is fairly obvious to anyone with half of a brain that the people on the exterior of a racetrack have to move faster to keep in line with those on the interior. Therefore the sun can move much slower than the outer planets. That's three.

If you looked at his references, he discusses it in more detail.  "With the details of stellar evolution in place, it's hard to imagine the sun acquiring 99.9% of the mass of the solar system but only 2% of its angular momentum."

Quote
Oh, this will be fun.

Nevermind. I read everything on that page, and I was expecting some handicapation that the flood carved out the grand canyon. Instead I just got some vague references to Christian and Jewish mythology by Christians and Jews. How quaint.

This proves to everyone that you barely read anything I had to present, and the small samples you did read you read with a huge amount of bias.


Here is my question to you:

Why is it that I soundly refuted the entirety of your puny list of so-called "evidences", while you get to pick 3 out of my list and call it a day?

I invite you to actually read through everything in those links, and then refute every piece of it, as you asked me to do.  Not this "lol i can pick out 3 parts and then misunderstand them to the point where they become an easily refutable straw man" crap.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 06:23:20 PM by Duckmeister »

Jesus Christ.

The topic is about his new PC.
Not about the definition of species.

Jesus Christ.

The topic is about his new PC.
Not about the definition of species.

Yes, but I made the topic.  Therefore, it was inevitable that Inverted had to come in and make some evolution v. creation comment.  He does that in every thread I post in, so I decided to keep it in one of my own threads instead of crapping on someone else's.

Ahem.  Your definition of species is only the definition of species as defined by an evolutionist, so obviously it's going to require evolution.  As a result, this is the stupidest, most illogical defense of evolution I've ever heard.  There are other definitions of species, ones that actually define it instead of force it to coincide with an otherwise hung-out-to-dry perspective.

I'm sorry? A species is defined by biologists as a reproductive group. If you dismiss everything said by scientists as atheistically biased, I think you should stop enjoying the benefits of evolutionary biology and astrophysics. Please, enjoy your life without electronics and healthcare.

Oh, but it has everything to do with abiogenesis.  See, evolution REQUIRES abiogenesis, in fact, spontaneous generation is its FOUNDATION!  You obviously know nothing about the perspective you are defending, as what created life in the first place if life did not come from God?  And if life didn't come from God, it certainly couldn't have become what we see today in the way God says it does, therefore, the only result is evolution preceded by spontaneous generation.


wat

You're handicapped. Evolution doesn't say God doesn't exist. You're putting ANOTHER strawman argument into this, and you still don't see it.


And because of the above, your entire view is knocked down by that one chapter.  Besides, if you actually read all of it, you would find that only some of its evidences are against spontaneous generation, and the rest are all against the concept of evolution itself.  So, please, go read it again, fully this time.

Obviously he was using the word "moon" as defined thusly:

"A natural satellite revolving around a planet, excluding various objects that, without the gravitational pull of the aforementioned planet, would be considered as "asteroids" or "space debris"."  

Equivocation is a bad fallacy to dance with, my friend.

Taking things out of context is also a bad fallacy to dance with, my intellectually challenged product of poor gene integration friend. A moon is a moon, even if it was once a piece of debris in space. My point is still valid, and yours still lacking any backing.

Seven degrees can only be considered "small" in a highly relative fashion.  It's enough to support his hypothesis, and whether it's up to your extremely high "grrrr creation grrrr" standards doesn't matter.  It obviously fits his hypothesis scientifically.


It fits the factually correct model of how the solar system developed far better. His argument holds no ground. A seven degree difference is to be expected.


If you looked at his references, he discusses it in more detail.  "With the details of stellar evolution in place, it's hard to imagine the sun acquiring 99.9% of the mass of the solar system but only 2% of its angular momentum."

I'm sorry, but just because something is hard to imagine does not mean it's not true. Special relativity isn't exactly a walk in the park. Gravity alone accounts for the buildup of mass in the center of the universe. Angular momentum is not created by mass.

This proves to everyone that you barely read anything I had to present, and the small samples you did read you read with a huge amount of bias.

You dismiss the entire scientific community because you assume it is a conspiracy. Are you going to be a hypocrite forever?

Here is my question to you:

Why is it that I soundly refuted the entirety of your puny list of so-called "evidences", while you get to pick 3 out of my list and call it a day?

You didn't refute one. You don't know anything about evolutionary biology. Hell, I'm willing to bet you have no idea how deoxyribonucleic acid is translated into proteins within the cell and vice versa.

I invite you to actually read through everything in those links, and then refute every piece of it, as you asked me to do.  Not this "lol i can pick out 3 parts and then misunderstand them to the point where they become an easily refutable straw man" crap.

lol

Read a book.


Duck, make a Blockland benchmark with your new PC. :D

Ahem.  Your definition of species is only the definition of species as defined by an evolutionist, so obviously it's going to require evolution.  As a result, this is the stupidest, most illogical defense of evolution I've ever heard.  There are other definitions of species, ones that actually define it instead of force it to coincide with an otherwise hung-out-to-dry perspective.

Ahem.  A species is a species.  You cannot have two separate types of species when only one can exist.  Humans evolved from apes.  We can tell this from science.  You cannot define an ape as anything other than an ape, nor a human as anything other than a human.

Oh, but it has everything to do with abiogenesis.  See, evolution REQUIRES abiogenesis, in fact, spontaneous generation is its FOUNDATION!  You obviously know nothing about the perspective you are defending, as what created life in the first place if life did not come from God?  And if life didn't come from God, it certainly couldn't have become what we see today in the way God says it does, therefore, the only result is evolution preceded by spontaneous generation.

Those are two different sciences, two completely different ideas.  We are not discussing how life came to be, but how it progressed over time.

Your arguments are showing a disturbing similarity.  They all include about one line of refutation.  The rest is just a bunch of insults and denial of the previous arguments.  Hell, you just posted one website to argue with Inv3rted, and it hardly applied to the context.  Then when he picked you apart, you argued that he only refuted a couple of your points.

Also, I don't understand.

Duckmeister is complaining because there's more evidence for evolution to refute?

lol

You studied evolution extensively and found tangible evidence, as several people have studied creationism.  You found your own form of evidence because you wanted to.  You had a subconscious desire to accept evolution since the cool crowd rejects God nowadays.  There is no foundational evidence to support evolution, other than a few controversial rocks and several loonies who claimed to have know how time began.  Yet you chose it.  You also expect us to believe you studied it extensively but will not accept the fact that your opponents in this debate have studied the other side.  You're digging yourself a bigger hole here pal.

I'll leave this here.

pro-tip: dont bother arguing with inv3rted or zaran