League of Legends - "The Enemies Inhibitor is respawning soon!"

[Mr. Wallet]

everything Chrono says

I think I have my first fanboy and/or lackey  

edit: oops he replied I'll put it below

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[mrxang]

At the cooldown cap you always need that much mana on people. It turned out to be just about the right amount based on the one game I've played. I needed MR and CD so spirit visage was perfect because it had the bonus of the +healing; it's not like I choose items based solely on their unique passives.

If you play farm caster, AP is not much-needed at all. You missed the point.

errr What does "farm caster" even mean? I can farm minions very efficiently building the standard 2x Dorans, Sorc Shoes, Deathcap, WotA, Void Staff, Rylai's build for all APs all the way from early game to late game and being so much more useful than your "farm caster" ever would be in a team fight.

I honestly don't even now what else to say? It's the most efficient way to build the majority of APs. You can farm easily and your incredibly useful in teamfights

I lol'd at this

?

[Chrono]

standard 2x Dorans,

oh no

no no no

don't tell me you are sent back at 475 gold every game

[Mr. Wallet]

So I thought I should explain farm caster and was editing this in:

I felt it would be constructive to explain the whole "farm caster don't need AP" thing. Basically RIOT is a company of geniuses who properly balance things to have different strengths and weaknesses. As a general rule, if you build mana/regen, you will be able to pour out a lot more damage than if you build AP; this damage will be so slow, however, that you will never kill any champions because they'll just back off long before you can finish them; the reason AP is smart is because you only need to deal enough damage to get through one champion's HP bar, and you need to do it fast. Minions, on the other hand, never run away no matter what, so sustainability farms them faster in the long run than AP.

So that's what that is.

2x dorans is not standard. I would say I see 80% at least with 0-1 Doran's. Your example build has absolutely no mana or mana regen, meaning you're either dumping huge amounts of gold into mana potions, or you aren't farming nearly as much as you think you are, because it's not mathematically possible without sacrificing absolutely all lane pressure.

The idea that you can have one standard template of items for all AP champs in the entire game is so ludicrous I'm not even gonna touch that one.

[mrxang]

oh no

no no no

don't tell me you are sent back at 475 gold every game

What...?

Starting items usually depend on the matchup, but I usually start Boots + 3x health pots to deal with skill shots and harass. Farm until around ~1700 gold, shove the lane, buy 2x Dorans and whatever else your gold can afford. If I'm doing well, Sorc Shoes and a ward or two. If not, some small component item, a few wards and a few health pots do fine.

[Chrono]

That seems like a big waste of 1700 considering doran's is supposed to be used as a "i'm stuck in a ditch better buy a temporary item that has good stats but goes no where to get back into the game", or used as an early advantage. (aka first item)

[Mr. Wallet]

I edited in some of my AP builds above for the lulz.

I wonder aloud why one would even bother playing a game they felt was so poorly-designed as to give loads and loads of items, most of which aren't much use.

[Camera]

Massive amounts of spellvamp and healing from mages not only helps with staying in lane more, but it's really funny as malz or someone with an offscreen ability. (Malefic visions on side lanes during an engagement for facerolling enemy mage.)

[Mr. Wallet]

Vamp is outsize powerful at low Elos so you definitely should keep that one.

Any effect that isn't "always on" gets ignored by everyone to some degree, but moreso by less skilled players. If you feel like you've had an Elo dip from a losing streak, spell vamp and life steal are good ways to get out, as is hexdrinker; basically anything that's not a simple HP+resists which the enemy can clearly measure. Bonus points if you don't crank up your damage right away to bait them in because they don't see your full vamp/steal speed until they're committed.

Beware the clutch!

[mrxang]

2x dorans is not standard. I would say I see 80% at least with 0-1 Doran's. Your example build has absolutely no mana or mana regen, meaning you're either dumping huge amounts of gold into mana potions, or you aren't farming nearly as much as you think you are, because it's not mathematically possible without sacrificing absolutely all lane pressure.

The idea that you can have one standard template of items for all AP champs in the entire game is so ludicrous I'm not even gonna touch that one.

...

That's the thing, the Dorans ARE the regen. 2 should be more than enough to sustain your mana to have presence and farm easily early game. And then there is this wonderful thing called Blue buff that regens your mana incredibly fast and takes care of mid game and late game regen easily.

@ the whole standard template thing, I phrased my statement wrong. I completely agree with you when it comes to every champ and every game requiring different itemization. I was just trying to imply that there is a set of core items where in a perfect game, a general AP champ like Brand would most likely pick them up. Obviously no game is perfect, so maybe buying a QSS would be needed against something like a Skarner.

That seems like a big waste of 1700 considering doran's is supposed to be used as a "i'm stuck in a ditch better buy a temporary item that has good stats but goes no where to get back into the game", or used as an early advantage. (aka first item)

First of all, 2x dorans are only 950 gold. ~1700 gold included the tier 2 boots and wards.

I really don't think you understand just how cost efficient Dorans are. They are incredibly cheap and will last you well into mid game and help you dominate your lane because of the AP, mana regen, and HP. They aren't just for getting back into the game. If your laning opponent were to buy a Blasting Wand (40 AP) to your 2x Doran's (30 AP, 200 HP, 10 MP5), you should be able to dominate him easily.

Blasting Wand costs 860g, 2x Dorans cost 950g. 90g difference for so much more useful stats. You're probably going to say "but doran's don't build into stuff! Blasting actually builds into stuff!" which is true, but any competent player would be able to outlane you so hard if you came back with just a blasting wand, keeping you from getting those higher items, while he free farms.

[Chrono]

I really don't think you understand just how cost efficient Dorans are. They are incredibly cheap and will last you well into mid game and help you dominate your lane because of the AP, mana regen, and HP. They aren't just for getting back into the game. If your laning opponent were to buy a Blasting Wand (40 AP) to your 2x Doran's (30 AP, 200 HP, 10 MP5), you should be able to dominate him easily.

Blasting Wand costs 860g, 2x Dorans cost 950g. 90g difference for so much more useful stats. You're probably going to say "but doran's don't build into stuff! Blasting actually builds into stuff!" which is true, but any competent player would be able to outlane you so hard if you came back with just a blasting wand, keeping you from getting those higher items, while he free farms.

Explains why I'm able to lane just fine AP mid with just a sapphire crystal against a crazy doran stacking boot wearing person in multiple games.

Oh right, the extra mana helps me get lots of early game harass in, sending them back, needing the doran's rings. I end up outleveling them. Level 6 with +200 mana (also counting AP per level runes and mastery) should easily beat a level 3-4 with 30 AP, 200 HP, and 10 MP5. (while I also have blue buff)

[Mr. Wallet]

If you assume blue buff as a given then you're already putting yourself on shaky ground with any but a 5-man AT that is all on board with the plan.

Doran's are worth exactly 120 HP more than their gold price would imply. Exactly.
I may indeed be wrong, but don't ever assume I don't know what I'm talking about.

And I don't know how to approach the original issue, after you yourself chose pure AP as the comparison item vs. Doran's... Which, if it is evidence either way whatsoever, is evidence in favor of a pure mana regen + max HP solution with no AP at all. Anyway, the best way to resolve it is experimentally, i.e. Having that much mana/regen is just about the right amount when I play malz. If you need less, good for you, but you can't say that +10 mana per 5 is going to let you do a solid-pressure farm for very long and expect me to take you seriously.

[mrxang]

Explains why I'm able to lane just fine AP mid with just a sapphire crystal against a crazy doran stacking boot wearing person in multiple games.

Oh right, the extra mana helps me get lots of early game harass in, sending them back, needing the doran's rings. I end up outleveling them. Level 6 with +200 mana (also counting AP per level runes and mastery) should easily beat a level 3-4 with 30 AP, 200 HP, and 10 MP5. (while I also have blue buff)

I don't know who you're playing against, but they must be trash. If you were to start with a sapphire crystal against someone like Ahri or Brand, they would abuse you so hard. No matter how good you are, you would have no way to dodge a well placed Pillar by Brand with base movement speed.

Your starting items work against someone that has no idea what they're doing. If you were to play someone that was better than you or equally skilled, you would get pushed out of lane easily.

But you really don't want to agree with me. So we'll just have to play sometime so we can see who's strategy is better!

[Chrono]

I don't know who you're playing against, but they must be trash. If you were to start with a sapphire crystal against someone like Ahri or Brand, they would abuse you so hard. No matter how good you are, you would have no way to dodge a well placed Pillar by Brand with base movement speed.

Your starting items work against someone that has no idea what they're doing. If you were to play someone that was better than you or equally skilled, you would get pushed out of lane easily.

But you really don't want to agree with me. So we'll just have to play sometime so we can see who's strategy is better!

If we can get two teams of 5 then so be it.

I could easily get a team though.

[Mr. Wallet]

I edited my last post - not used to topics that move this fast. :x

I lane mid vs. brand with no boots all the time. (edit: well... no. But when I do lane mid, and brand is there, I don't have boots.) Any brand wasting time pillaring me is going to run out of mana before I run out of HP. I generally don't get boots until 20-25 minutes unless I'm playing a very very short-range champion like Garen. When you're playing farm style, you just don't need it.

edit: waiting for mrcookie to be ready to play yawwwwwwn
at first it was a really tough style to learn; I would average 3 deaths in the first 12 minutes and only catch up at the end of a long game. These days though I'm last to die about half of the time... when by chance it should be about 10% of the time. And not dying is basically all you need to worry about.

In strategy, you have effectively won when you forestall the enemy, so you must train well to attain this.