Author Topic: Why is Call of Duty still getting hated on?  (Read 5495 times)

Who has actually demonstrated that education mediates the relationship between games and enjoyment? I also like the catch-all "unless they're supported by graphics, music and story". "Games that don't teach anything aren't fun unless they additionally have any other standard element of gameplay"
The two big ones are Jonathan Blow (this speech is his best summary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFu5O-oPmU), and Raph Koster with his book "A Theory of Fun".

I'm not giving the idea enough credit because I'm not very good at explaining these complex ideas. That said, what defines a "standard element of gameplay"?

Is a game without music suddenly not a game? If you play a game like Simon Says which is about repeating the music (aka without graphics), is that not a game? Is a game like Pong without a story not a game?

They're subjective elements. You don't need them to have a game. Gameplay itself is not subjective though. The actions you perform and the challenges you face are required.

theres nothing wrong with call of duty as a game, i mean, its not for me and far too easy / arcadey. its the fact that they pretty much just re-release the same game with a few new gadgets and guns every year and charge 60 bucks every time.

it gets hated for its money milking and the fact the gameplay is so simple/dumbed down

Just because they can, doesn't make it right. Does invading Iraq because America wants fuel make it correct?

What?
What??

What the forget?

I mean... This really comes out of nowhere.
Do you really want the CoD developers to make it in such a way that it satisfies your standards? It's simple, and fun for some. The whole point of video games are to entertain... it just may not be in your personal preference.

I really wish I could just show you a video that explains what I'm trying to convey in better terms, but you would probably dismiss it as "pretentious bullstuff". I know because I used to think in exactly the same way as you, until I actually studied and saw things were a lot different.

Or you could just stop assuming how I think. I mean, you could be right, or you could just link us the video so we can all watch it.

The problem is that developers are not focusing on what makes games special. Games are about being interactive. Why is that interactive part so weak? Why are so many game developers making movies?

...Game developers are making movies? The only complaint I can possibly think this applies to are FMV games (Dragon's Lair, Timegal, Space Ace, etc.) or visual novels. FMV games don't really have much interaction, but I cannot think of another video game genre where the interaction is weak. Games normally have quite a bit of gameplay. Even in something like a visual novel, the gameplay comes from the choices you make directing the story. I suppose that's why it's called a visual novel, though. It's better than making a choose-your-own-adventure book because you can have animation, seamless integration between choices, music, etc.

The weak gameplay that, if we removed all the graphics and audio, would not keep players there for hours on end.

Honestly, I don't think an FPS translates well into a text adventure.
Also, I'm not seeing the point. If somebody really likes the graphics and sound of a game but not the gameplay, they would get bored with it and stop playing anyway.
And, define "remove graphics and audio". Rhythm games are pretty fun games, and taking out the audio just completely destroys the whole point of the game. And what about graphics? How limited must your graphics be to qualify for "removing graphics"? Graphics are a very useful tool in a video game, you know, so you know what you're actually looking at.

I'm not saying games have to teach you the loving works of Shakespeare. I'm just saying that games that don't teach you relevant skills will stop being fun after a short period of time, unless they're supported by graphics, music and story.

Ah, yes, Katamari Damacy, that really fun game that teaches me... uh...

If people knew they were learning, they'd probably be turned off games.

Sure thing...

That said, what defines a "standard element of gameplay"?

Is a game without music suddenly not a game? If you play a game like Simon Says which is about repeating the music (aka without graphics), is that not a game? Is a game like Pong without a story not a game?

They're subjective elements. You don't need them to have a game. Gameplay itself is not subjective though. The actions you perform and the challenges you face are required.
Do you not know what a catch-all is? You haven't understood what I've said.

Are you a first year university student? because everything you write reads frustratingly like it was written by one.

This argument is so stupid.

Do you not know what a catch-all is? You haven't understood what I've said.

Are you a first year university student? because everything you write reads frustratingly like it was written by one.
My bad, sorry.

It's probably worse, but I'm a second year Game Design student at college.

It's simple, and fun for some. The whole point of video games are to entertain... it just may not be in your personal preference.
My personal preference is to be entertained, not be insulted by developers who assume I'm some child that needs to be feed flashing lights and be told in bold, loud voices that I need to do X action over and over again

It's simple because it doesn't teach any complex patterns. That doesn't make it a good game. It makes it the Harold and Kumar of movies.

Or you could just stop assuming how I think. I mean, you could be right, or you could just link us the video so we can all watch it.
I linked one in a previous post replying to DiceyGrammar. The best explanation is in a book which has sources though, and the book is "A Theory of Fun".

...Game developers are making movies?
In the sense that they're using Hollywood's style of high-octane, low substance produce that treats viewers like idiots.

Honestly, I don't think an FPS translates well into a text adventure.
Maybe that says something about FPSs. I don't know.

Also, I'm not seeing the point. If somebody really likes the graphics and sound of a game but not the gameplay, they would get bored with it and stop playing anyway.
But they like the graphics and sound of the game. That's why they continue to "play" the game. That's why I slogged through 5 hours of Black Op's campaign. Not because I cared for shooting bad AI in the head, because I had some interest in the story and I did like the music.

And, define "remove graphics and audio". Rhythm games are pretty fun games, and taking out the audio just completely destroys the whole point of the game.
Because the entire gameplay premise is about music. What about a game where audio isn't important, like Mirror's Edge. You don't really need sound to parkour. It helps build the experience, but you can finish the game just fine with the sound turned of..

And what about graphics? How limited must your graphics be to qualify for "removing graphics"? Graphics are a very useful tool in a video game, you know, so you know what you're actually looking at.
That's what graphics, sound, story, visual effects etc are. Tools. Tools that regularly are misused to replace real substance. Look at cow-clickers at Farm-Ville. Why do you think people play that "game" religiously and spend money?

Removing graphics means that there's no visual component to the game. You're basically playing the game blind.

Ah, yes, Katamari Damacy, that really fun game that teaches me... uh...
I've never played, but I assume it teaches teamwork, trust, responsibility or something to that respect? Your interaction with the little beings are important, isn't it?

The point of a video game is to have fun. Education is not essential for the enjoyment of the game, Mcjobless. Ever heard of Saints Row 4?

The point of a video game is to have fun. Education is not essential for the enjoyment of the game, Mcjobless. Ever heard of Saints Row 4?
But this is the point. Fun comes from education. It's from exploring the boundaries and trying to test the limits of what you can do. Repeating the same action over and over is not fun. It gets boring. This is why I think CoD is a bad game.

Saint's Row, GTA and many other open sandbox games I actually like, because there's just so much to do and so much to learn about the world around you. One play will shoot down every citizen to see what trouble he can get into. One will try launch a bike off a roof to see if he can survive. My brother will drive a bus around because he wants to see what being a bus driver is like.

These games actually teach you (in an abstract way) about real life. I want to see more of these. I just want the story to be more about player narrative, not some weak story made by developers as a selling point.


oh my god this is terrible

EDIT: the recent arguments by him are even more terrible oh my god

But this is the point. Fun comes from education. It's from exploring the boundaries and trying to test the limits of what you can do. Repeating the same action over and over is not fun. It gets boring. This is why I think CoD is a bad game.

Saint's Row, GTA and many other open sandbox games I actually like, because there's just so much to do and so much to learn about the world around you. One play will shoot down every citizen to see what trouble he can get into. One will try launch a bike off a roof to see if he can survive. My brother will drive a bus around because he wants to see what being a bus driver is like.

These games actually teach you (in an abstract way) about real life. I want to see more of these. I just want the story to be more about player narrative, not some weak story made by developers as a selling point.
this is the same way people may find games like COD fun. they like playing games where you shoot other people and be competitive. kinda like how super smash bros is competitive, which is fun (IMO) i'd like to see what bullstuff you come up with for super smash bros being educational, and come on half life 2 teaches you that you can drown in water so it oh so MUST BE FUN to you???
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 04:57:18 AM by Crispy_ »

Super Smash Brothers teaches you how to punch your favorite Nintendo character in the face! This is a very useful skill in life. What if you find a guy in a Mario costume and youre like, Gee, what do I do? Now you know!

Fun is hard to define, however some people have tried their best to define how people enjoy games and thus, what 'types of fun' there are.
While it sounds really strange, it is quite good.
For example:
http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf
If we read this we find this:
Quote
1. Sensation
 Game as sense-pleasure
2. Fantasy
 Game as make-believe
3. Narrative
 Game as drama
4. Challenge
 Game as obstacle course
5. Fellowship
 Game as social framework
6. Discovery
 Game as uncharted territory
7. Expression
 Game as self-discovery
8. Submission
 Game as pastime
These are all ways to have fun for the player in a game and i think a franchise as Call of Duty is a Sensation kind of type.
A way of fun close to the Hollywood action movie styles with the feeling of being able to kill an entire army by yourself.
If we go further, sensation should feel good, feel real in some way to truly use the most of your senses to accomplish this kind of fun.
This is mostly done by graphics and sound as a console/computer cannot really use any of the other senses (taste, smell and touch).
Arguably, they try to innovate on at least one of those fronts every title.
Sometimes not as much as always, but they really try hard to make Call of Duty better every time if we believe what they say about their own game.
Story is a thing they might not be the best in, but narrative is obviously not something they focus on.

This is my view on the Call of Duty series, some will have arguments as to why it is not a good view or anything, but unless they really have insight on the guys behind Call of Duty and game design, we will never know for sure who is right.

this is the same way people may find games like COD fun. they like playing games where you shoot other people and be competitive. kinda like how super smash bros is competitive, which is fun (IMO) i'd like to see what bullstuff you come up with for super smash bros being educational
Competitiveness is "fun" (at least, it releases endorphins), so long you're winning. It's basically affirming that you understand the patterns.

The problem is what you're learning from the game amounts to "Run to X point, shoot with Y gun". That's pretty useless to me and to most people in real life. Why couldn't Call of Duty at least offer some level of strategy? Management is pretty big in this day and era, so why couldn't they add squad gameplay or something more than "Press X near door"?

I know you now think of me as the next forum douchebag, but whatever.

I just don't want to see this industry continue to be thought of as simple toys for kids to play with. It happened with movies, art, books and the radio, but what happened with all of those was that they got some pretty serious and awesome works and they "matured". Games need to to hit that maturity point, and it starts with making better games.

Fun is hard to define, however some people have tried their best to define how people enjoy games and thus, what 'types of fun' there are.
While it sounds really strange, it is quite good.
For example:
http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf
But this example doesn't really explain how fun works in terms of the mental process. I'm very obsessed with the psychology of fun, which is where these arguments are coming from.

The brains are a strange thing, but apparently people are having fun when they are presented with sensation.
Hence why Hollywood action films are such a big thing too.
How and why, i have no idea.
While it would be interesting to know how that works, so we can improve our games and other forms of entertainment, searching that on these forums is not really a good idea.
Most of people don't even know exactly why they enjoy something.
You have to dig really deep to find out why they enjoy things.
These lists of types of fun and the such are already a good guidance as to how people enjoy their stuff, any deeper then that requires a lot of time, effort and research into how the brain works.

EDIT:
As to that games still haven't hit that mature point, that is true.
Games are still maturing as you would like to put it, but great things can be seen outside of the general area.
Gamification, while still being in development heavily, is a thing that can and is already changing things like schools and other things.
You maybe shouldn't search this maturity in an already existing franchise based upon a perhaps indeed simpleminded kind of fun.
And hey, movies, art, books and radio doesn't consist out of all awesome works either.
They are, just like games, constantly being developed and not all works on it are awesome masterpieces.

And why should game developers change their game franchise completely, when the game franchise has outsold every other game pretty much every time.
They continue to make a lot of money with it, which is their goal really and the consumer keeps buying it.
As long as the demand is there, they supply.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:48:52 AM by lordician »

Because they're just milking their customers out of their money.
If they didn't release a new CoD with 2+ paid dlc packs each year I wouldn't dislike the games as much.

Competitiveness is "fun" (at least, it releases endorphins), so long you're winning. It's basically affirming that you understand the patterns.

The problem is what you're learning from the game amounts to "Run to X point, shoot with Y gun". That's pretty useless to me and to most people in real life. Why couldn't Call of Duty at least offer some level of strategy? Management is pretty big in this day and era, so why couldn't they add squad gameplay or something more than "Press X near door"?
well you could have said "well cod should have some strategy" instead of starting this bullstuff about how games need to be educational.

yes. i do agree that strategy is much needed in a game like COD. good day.