Catalonia's independence movement died before it started

[Kearn]

no, police exist because someone has to be an authoritative actor of the state to enforce its laws and sovereignty

Yeah, because individuals are definitely the same thing as an entire society. Definitely.
The people are not subject to the government. The government is subject to the people.

what exactly is your threshold between individuals and people? if i find some guy on the street to say the laws don't apply to "us" is it okay then?

[Ad Bot]

[beachbum111111]

guys some online poll says that the majority of Californians want independence California totally should be a sovereign nation guys

[TristanLuigi]

no, police exist because someone has to be an authoritative actor of the state to enforce its laws and sovereignty

That is their purpose, but their right to do so derives from the people.
I seriously don't understand why this is so difficult for you. The government derives its power from the people, and ONLY from the people. It's literally one of the foundations of democracy.

[beachbum111111]

Tristan is still ignoring that this referendum is about as legit as a poll from CIA

[Ceist]

Yes, but are the court's decisions relevant to what is right and wrong?
I argue that they should be allowed to, not necessarily that they should. There's certainly a distinction there. Their decision may not be correct, but it is their decision to make.

Yes. Court's are usually supposed differentiate right and wrong.

[TristanLuigi]

Yes. Court's are usually supposed differentiate right and wrong.

They differentiate what's legal and illegal, not what's right and wrong. Correlated, perhaps, but not identical.

[Kearn]

They differentiate what's legal and illegal, not what's right and wrong. Correlated, perhaps, but not identical.

the law is the "right and wrong" under a nation's sovereign rule. you can feel how you want about it based on whatever moral system you run on but at the end of the day you cannot expect to violate the law and expect said nation to say "okay well that's fine that law doesn't apply to you"

spain has adamantly insisted that catalonia does not have the right to secede under the spanish constitution and catalonia is subject to spain's rule. unless you're proposing a civil war or international invasion of spain to forcibly liberate catalonia they are a subject of spain

[TristanLuigi]

the law is the "right and wrong" under a nation's sovereign rule. you can feel how you want about it based on whatever moral system you run on but at the end of the day you cannot expect to violate the law and expect said nation to say "okay well that's fine that law doesn't apply to you"

Again, you're conflating individuals and society. You can't get out of a case against you by saying "I disagree with this," but when an entire region of people no longer want to be ruled by the Spanish government, they have the right to leave.

[Kearn]

Again, you're conflating individuals and society. You can't get out of a case against you by saying "I disagree with this," but when an entire region of people no longer want to be ruled by the Spanish government, they have the right to leave.

what constitutes a region? if i convince my highschool class to declare independence is the US obligated to let us establish a new nation in the schoolgrounds? can a city declare independence? a county?

[beachbum111111]

Theres no point in arguing with tristan. He's completely delusional and refuses to accept reality.

[TristanLuigi]

what constitutes a region? if i convince my highschool class to declare independence is the US obligated to let us establish a new nation in the schoolgrounds? can a city declare independence? a county?

Wow, I can't believe it's taken you this long to ask a question that's actually relevant and open for debate. I can't claim to have a universal definition, but Catalonia has a separate language and a separate culture - I think that qualifies them as a separate region.

[Kearn]

Wow, I can't believe it's taken you this long to ask a question that's actually relevant and open for debate. I can't claim to have a universal definition, but Catalonia has a separate language and a separate culture - I think that qualifies them as a separate region.

so by the conditions you've given a school for the deaf is fully capable of declaring itself an independent nation, yeah?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language

[Rally]

Wow, I can't believe it's taken you this long to ask a question that's actually relevant and open for debate.

Even Kimon wasn't this insufferable

[TristanLuigi]

so by the conditions you've given a school for the deaf is fully capable of declaring itself an independent nation, yeah?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language

Are you willing to argue that these things are qualitatively equivalent to languages and cultures like Catalan?

[Kearn]

Are you willing to argue that these things are qualitatively equivalent to languages and cultures like Catalan?

i'm using your exact definitions!!! you didn't have a quantitative threshold for it

is new york city allowed to secede? is each neighborhood in nyc allowed to secede? how many secessions can you have? are you in favor of a billion city states?